Saturday, October 20, 2007

The Importance of Acceptance

I believe that accepting autistic people is simply the right thing to do. It's not something you should consider doing just to make a child "get better" or any medicalized thing of that nature. That said, in a prior discussion the question came up as to whether acceptance might be beneficial to autistic children, so I decided to research it. There is not a lot of autism-specific research on the issue, but I did find there is a large body of research on acceptance and its effects on general population children as well as disabled children.

In the general population it has been found that parental acceptance correlates with better academic performance (Hahn, 1980), optimal self-concept development (Litovsky & Dusek, 1985), self-worth and self-competence (Ohannessian et al., 1998), etc. Self-worth has been found to correlate to perceived competence in domains important to parents (Killeen, 1993).

In children with "disruptive behavior disorders", parent-child attachment has been found to correlate with lower levels of aggression and social stress (Ooi, 2006). The self-esteem of children with learning disabilities have been found to be associated with parental acceptance (Morvitz & Motta, 1992).

On a related note, I've learned there's something called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT). In randomized trials it has been found to be as effective as the dominant form of psychotherapy, CBT, in the treatment of depression, anxiety and problems of that nature. Its mechanism of action appears to be different to that of CBT (Forman et al., 2007). There has been a trial of this type of therapy with parents of autistic children (Blackledge, 2006), but it should be stressed this trial was not randomized. There is also a non-randomized trial of this therapy as a treatment of Social Anxiety Disorder (Dalrymple & Herbert, 2007).

I don't have any comments beyond that. I just wanted to report what I found, but I'd appreciate any personal experiences, or insight from readers with expertise on the topic.

57 comments:

  1. I dont understand how anyone could love their child and yet think that they are less than perfect.
    How can a parent look at their child and see someone less than perfect???
    It is something i will never understand.
    But to look at your child and see a condition that needs to be addressed I do understand.
    Is that what Autism is?
    Not if you accept the definition of the ND crowd.
    I have no problem accepting that definition.
    But there are medical issues that are also a part of that vague definition of 'autism'.
    so many parents accept 'autism' and don't know that they are accepting medical conditions.
    so many parents try to cure 'autism' and dont know that they are trying to change their God given child.
    Its terrible.
    We really need to do something about it.
    I just spoke to a mom who's child just lost the diagnosis of autism.
    she has worked as hard as hell for this moment...do you know what she said to me?
    she said "it's just great to get that monkey off your back"
    (referring to the autism label). then she added "i know you know what i mean"
    This attitude is what needs to change.
    I know her son...he is fine...she says he has 'social issues'.
    she is obsessed with curing him.
    both sides need to come to an understanding of what is going on...one needs to drop 'science' and one needs to drop 'cure'.
    when that happens our children will benefit.
    is any other thing important?
    Phil

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  2. oh by the way, do you guys really need to refer to us parents who believe in biomedical as an effective treatment for some children as curebies?
    its very offensive.

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  3. Why are we called NDs? Who came up with that one?

    There is such a thing as curebie-ism, for lack of a better term. See Abfh's post for its definition. It covers all the nuances of the argument.

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  4. if Phil can't find the definition of curebie-ism in his webster's i doubt its of much use to him.
    Suzanne over at
    http://steadyandslow.blogspot.com/
    has excellent alternative labels....and he wont have any trouble looking them up.

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  5. Hi, Sigrun here. I think a parent said it best when she said, "I'm an improvie, not a curebie."

    I am in favor of proper nutrition, which includes (moderate) vitamins, and teaching a child life skills. (It makes sense that I would not give a kid with "severe" ADHD caffeine and would really watch their sugar intake, for example.) I am in favor of treating medical problems as they come up.

    However, I do not believe in the medical model of disability when it relates to autism. You see, the "epidemic of autism" relates now to the fact that doctors are aware and more willing to diagnose. 20 years ago, when I was a kid, the diagnosis given for people like me was "childhood schizophrenia", but I am not schizophrenic, and I've been given several contradictory diagnoses up unto this point. Many who are kids now, who would have been diagnosed with childhood schizophrenia 20 years ago, are now called "autistic". But it's the same set of traits going on.

    I am pretty sure autistic traits have always existed. However, living in the ultra-modern electric 21st century, we are presented with some new problems, which makes it hard for those of us on the autistic spectrum with sensory issues. The Amish have autistics in their population but you don't hear them go on and on about it because they don't have the problems with modern technology, and everyone has a place in society. Amish parents are not so quick to abandon their kids into institutions.

    I believe my mom loves me. However, she dragged me to doctor to doctor to figure out what was wrong (this was the early 80s), put me on some very weird diets, and had me go through some weird, weird, weird therapies that just made me think I was damaged. And I am considered "high-functioning". I believe my mom had the best of intentions. She didn't realize that her natural parental instinct to "fix boo-boos" was going to contribute to depression as an adult. I can understand that most of the "curebie" parents may not think they hate their child, and may want to help make life easier. I get that. So it's not my place to tell parents that they're bad.

    However, the facts are clear: I, as a 27 y/o adult, wish I had been accepted by my parents. Because I preferred to read, was unpopular, and didn't see the logic in putting paint on my face or wearing uncomfortable clothes to be more acceptable to others, I was an embarrassment to my parents. And again, I'm considered "high-functioning".

    I'm in favor of gently coaching a child to work with maximizing their strengths and working around the deficits. I know many of us lack "executive function" because our brain power is invested in other areas (system of checks and balances). So I don't think it's bad to gently coach a child in ways that would be effective, to help with basic life skills, and some social skills, as a matter of survival, since it is apparent that the 21st century is not going to change to accommodate us all the way. And it depends on each individual child. I don't like using the terms "high-functioning" and "low-functioning", there are days when I can just about pass for NT, and days when I seem more classically autistic. Even kids with the same diagnosis, are going to respond differently to different things. Skills easily learned by one child, may not be by the next, and this is true of NT kids as well (this is coming from someone who maintained a 3.8 GPA in high school, but has several learning disabilities, and was called "retard" by peers).

    So no, I don't want kids to suffer. But I don't want kids to suffer in the name of "help". Among other things, I am a psychiatric survivor. I'm not against meds or therapy if people need them, but NTs who assume I must be an ND advocate because I'm in with Big Pharma are sorely mistaken. I have no love of the big drug companies after being mis-diagnosed and then overmedicated due to punitive measures. Institutional abuse still happens, and autistic people put into institutions are very often easy targets for abuse by staff and other "consumers".

    I think a lot of problems that result in someone going into an institution, can be averted ahead of time, by acceptance, education, patience, and effort. You notice I said "acceptance" first.

    Thank you again :)

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  6. Joe, 'ND' refers to Neurodiverse and certainly is not meant as a put down, just an abbreviation. I have many friends in that crowd. I wouldn't be offended in the least by being called someone who is in the biomedical crowd. so there is no offence meant at all by that term.
    I do not accept the term "curebie" because it is derogative in nature. If a parent is to aggressive in trying to help their child I don't think you should insult them and actually whats worse is that the term 'curebie' just makes it easier for them to disregard you.
    Think about it, if you tell them that they are being too aggressive in their attempts to help their child and that there may be long term issues that you are going to cause in that child, I think that may get their attention and make them pause and consider their actions.
    Call them a 'curebie' and they just laugh you off and view you as a over zealous fanatic that has no understanding of their attempts to help their child. Then they don't listen and THE CHILD SUFFERS!
    That's the main issue I have with that term...it turns off the parents who are the ones in charge of the children.
    If those parents are being too aggressive (and many are) then we need to win them over to get them to change their ways...insulting them wont accomplish that.

    SF, you would make a great advocate for children. I have other friends with autism who tell your same story and it really is sad that this is going on in the world of autism. Kids who are really 'ok' are being dragged around from therapy to therapy and they are learning that there is 'something wrong' with them.
    this will destroy their confidence.
    I am going to be doing a video on youtube (I do a lot of videos on youtube showing me and my son and talking about autism topics) talking about this issue.
    It is so important that all parents with autistic kids hear your story and others stories.
    Parents need to know when to stop with biomedical treatments and when behavioral interventions are causing more damage than good.
    As for me and my son Jake, we haven't done any biomedical interventions in a years time (he is still on a somewhat restrictive diet though) and we haven't done behavioral interventions in about a year and a half.
    We are just letting him naturally develop now.

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  7. Phil "may God have mercy on your souls" Commander-
    "We" need to do something?
    ahh, but we dont care about kids remember?
    Go to your own "biomed" people. Tell them not to change their God given child. tell them they make their children suffer. dont forget to add that you pity them, and then insinuate their going to hell -that aught to work- right? they might lose any regard they had for you, might consider you a pest...but you wouldnt talk to a biomed parent like that...might lose a channel subscriber

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  8. As an addendum, one thing I did not look into before but which is obviously relevant in retrospect, is acceptance in the gay community. Homosexuality has been depathologized for a long time, so it's not surprising there would be a lot of research in this area.

    In this community we find there is an association between alcoholism and lack of self-acceptance, psychological adjustment and family acceptance, anxiety and self-acceptance difficulties, self-acceptance and decreased sexual risk behavior, etc.

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  9. orig calif biomed xprt10/21/2007 7:30 PM

    "But to look at your child and see a condition that needs to be addressed I do understand. Is that what Autism is? Not if you accept the definition of the ND crowd....But there are medical issues that are also a part of that vague definition of 'autism'.
    so many parents accept 'autism' and don't know that they are accepting medical conditions."


    This is complete balderdash and it's getting beyond tiresome to read this blatantly false refrain from those who think that autism is all about vaccine damage. Please find one parent, who subscribes to the ND philosophy of acceptance, respect and protection of civil rights for those with autism, who has ignored health issues? Find me one example. If you can't find that example, then cease and desist from repeating this tale. It's disrespectful toward my kid that you continue to perpetuate this myth.

    As far as I"m concerned, there may be serious health concerns that those who subscribe to mercury chelation and "detox" have missed because of their pre-occupation with a very dubious treatment protocol. I have experience with a BMD (Brave Maverick Doctor) who missed more than one pressing health issue, due to his allegiance to his precious protocol.

    You're a newbie, Philcommander, you still have a lot to learn about the science of autism.

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  10. To those who responded to me,
    Amanda, I have told parents that they need to stop trying to cure their god given child. Please watch my video 'autism gameplan to cure" or something like that.
    I do not talk to them the way I talk to the ND crowd because i believe that the biomed crowd are easier to get through to. I really do. I am polite in the hopes of winning them over and getting them to see that there is genetics involved here. I honestly tell this to every parent i talk to on the phone (which is usually about three a week).
    You don't insult those you are trying to win over. The 'science' crowd has little hope if you ask me. For some reason they feel that science has all the answers...it has very little. When i say this people think it is because i dont understand science! Thats too funny. I say this because I understand science all too well. Its like someone telling you that you would like a person if you got to know them and you say "ive known them for twenty years and lived with them for ten...thats why i DONT like them! i know them all too well! LOL
    And if you ever watched my videos you would know I say many times that chelation and hbot did nothing for my child. If I cared what people thought of me I would support those interventions. I only support what worked for my son.
    I dont care about channel subscribers...i have way too many emails to answer as it is.
    Calf.bio.expert,
    where have i ever said that autism is vaccine damage?
    I did a video saying that vaccines should never be taken off the board when it comes to possible causes for developmental delays. One reason is that they had a neurotoxin in them...there are other reasons. My feelings are just that you don't ever give vaccines the benefit of the doubt either way...they always need to be looked at as possible causes for developmental delays. Antibiotics too.
    There telling parents not to give children cold medicine after all of these years. They really don't know much and injecting our kids with the stuff they do is scary.
    You guys are against chelation and have some strong arguments as to why parents should be against it...but those same arguments can be used against vaccines and other things.
    If you are wondering why i dont believe in science i only have one word for you. understand this word and you will understand my entire argument against science.
    That 'word' is "James Watson".
    I agree with you that parents preoccupation with any one intervention is unhealthy. As well is the preoccupation to 'cure' their kid and lose a label. I was never like that.
    you wuold have to define 'newbie' to see if i qualify. I don't feel I am. Besides, just because youve been at it a long time doesnt mean you are more knowledgable...look at george bush, he's had 8 years to get it right.
    And i have spoken to dozens of parents who were all about 'accepting' autism and slowly learnt that they were ignoring health issues. They were doing NOTHING for their children but accepting them.
    I am not surprised that you dont come in contact with them. Think about it, these people dont read blogs or look into autism deeply. they hear a message or two telling them to accept it and go on with their lives. they stumble onto my videos and it changes their point of view.
    I could tell you about one family i know who believed their child was who god meant him to be and let it go till he was 12 despite pleas from the grandparents to do something. The kid just graduated college, has his own car, and is a computer whizz...doesnt know to say 'hi' to people (has to be told to) and cant get a job and has no friends...not one.
    Both sides messages concern me (cure, accept) because they are both extreme. The right message to me is not 'cure' or 'accept'...it is GET INVOLVED!
    So i reject the 'science' of anything and I know many parents who did nothing for their child because they thought it meant they didnt accept them (one lets her kid poop his pants at nine years old because she thinks making him use the toilet puts pressure on him and isnt accepting him...but she admits he is potty trained and can use the toilet, she just doesnt believe he should be forced to...you would know her name if i told you).
    If you look at the definition of 'accept' you will find that it runs contrary to the thought of getting involved.
    Love to all...(is that better)
    Phil
    btw, if you guys want me to stop commenting on these blogs just say the word and i will go away...i dont want to impose my views on someone elses blog.

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  11. The 'science' crowd has little hope if you ask me. For some reason they feel that science has all the answers...it has very little.

    Science doesn't claim to have all the answers. It's reliable method for separating fact from fiction though. Suggesting that anyone thinks science does have all the answers is about as big of a straw man argument as one can make.

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  12. orig calif biomed xprt10/21/2007 10:27 PM

    Phil:

    I've seen all of your videos since you began posting on youtube. I'm sorry but you're going to need to delineate for me how you are so well-versed in science. I'm not going to just take your word for it, thanks anyway. You still have not given me an example of an actual ignored health issue among the ND community.

    Furthermore, after first arguing:

    "where have i ever said that autism is vaccine damage?"

    you then launch into a typical anti-vax diatribe:

    "I did a video saying that vaccines should never be taken off the board when it comes to possible causes for developmental delays. One reason is that they had a neurotoxin in them...there are other reasons. My feelings are just that you don't ever give vaccines the benefit of the doubt either way...they always need to be looked at as possible causes for developmental delays."

    And, "James Watson" does not equal "only one word".

    Finally, I have no idea what you mean by this statement:

    "If you look at the definition of 'accept' you will find that it runs contrary to the thought of getting involved."

    Again, I am advocating for ... as I stated initially ... "the ND philosophy of acceptance, respect and protection of civil rights for those with autism."

    I have no earthly idea how my philosophy could possibly be construed as "non-involvement". Once again, utter balderdash, Phil. Completely wrong again.

    And please do stay around, as you could do with a proper education.

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  13. Doc, science does not seperate fact from fiction. That would mean that science can prove a negative which it can't. Just because you can't prove something does not mean it isnt true...thats basic logic. You contradict yourself when you say that on one hand science doesnt have all the answers and on the other hand it seperates fact from fiction.
    The act of establishing something as fact does not mean it has established opposing views as fiction.
    You can establish that high caloric intake causes obesity as a fact, that doesnt mean that a mothers assertion that her childs obesity is due to lack of exercise is fiction.
    So I reject the claim that science seperates Fact from Fiction.

    biomedexpert,
    i will let my arguments deliniate my knowledge of science and scientific method.
    This is your quote
    "Please find one parent, who subscribes to the ND philosophy of acceptance, respect and protection of civil rights for those with autism, who has ignored health issues? "

    You asked for ONE PARENT...
    Now you (maybe inadvertantly) changed that to

    "an example of an actual ignored health issue among the ND community."

    Do you want ONE PARENT or one HEALTH ISSUE?
    the two are not the same.

    I know a bunch of parents as i stated. as far as issues your community ignores, i wouldnt know really.

    You originally accused my statements of doing this

    "it's getting beyond tiresome to read this blatantly false refrain from those who think that autism is all about vaccine damage."

    I informed you that i did not say that vaccines cause autism.

    You then tell me that my dialogue is "anti-vax". heres what you wrote...

    "Furthermore, after first arguing:

    "where have i ever said that autism is vaccine damage?"

    you then launch into a typical anti-vax diatribe"

    [do you see how you changed it from vaccines cause autism to anti vax diatribe?]

    A person can be anti vax without believing vaccines cause autism.
    You accused me originally of saying that vaccines cause autism...i did not say that. Own up to your error and stop trying to change the goalposts.

    "James Watson" does equal one word when someone uses it as a synonym. Like Judas or Benedict Arnold.
    I am using "James Watson" as a synonym for why science can not and should not be trusted. I am sure that you can figure out why I would say that.

    You then quoted from my comment and replied...heres my comment and your reply...

    ""If you look at the definition of 'accept' you will find that it runs contrary to the thought of getting involved."

    [to which you replied]

    "Again, I am advocating for ... as I stated initially ... "the ND philosophy of acceptance, respect and protection of civil rights for those with autism."

    I have no earthly idea how my philosophy could possibly be construed as "non-involvement". Once again, utter balderdash, Phil. Completely wrong again."

    Who was talking about you and your philosophy? You completely missed the point. My point wasn't what YOU though acceptance means...my point was that parents hear the term 'acceptance' and are confused. I have no idea what gave you the impression i was talking about you and your philosophy, so i wasnt wrong, i just didnt dummy up my message enough for you to follow i guess.
    Im being rude but sometimes its kinda fun to be rude to someone who suggested i need a "proper education" ;)~
    You attempted to mischaracterize
    my 'definition of acceptance' comment. You tried to imply that i was referring to your philosophy...I wasnt and it should have been clear to you that i wasnt referring to you or your philosphy.
    No wonder you don't agree with anything i say...you simply don't understand it!

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  14. Doc, I take back my comment that you contradict yourself when you say that science doesnt have all the answers and that science establishes fact from fiction.
    Those two views are not irreconcilable.

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  15. Not only is science a reliable method to distinguish fact from fiction, but the suggestion that personal experience and testimonials are a superior method is utter balderdash.

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  16. holy cow phil. errgh.
    "I dont understand how anyone could love their child and yet think that they are less than perfect.
    How can a parent look at their child and see someone less than perfect???"
    Easy! They BLAME someone/something for poisoning, soul-napping, train-wrecking their REAL "perfect" child, and devote every resource to "recovering" that.
    When a parent says "we have to make you better", when their child is NOT SICK, they tell their child they are not valued as is.
    Much like my own Dad telling me, at age 11, "you'd be pretty if you lost 15 pounds". He wanted to "cure" me of my weight problem, I guess. Guess what! Not only am I still fat, I took on NEW disorders (BDD)(etc) due to that psychological damage.

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  17. Joe, you ignored my argument against the phrase "science distinguishes fact from fiction".
    explain how science can prove something is fiction to me.

    Suzanne, I do not think i said that it doesnt happen (parents seeing their child as less than perfect) I just said i dont see how anyone can do it.
    I dont see how anyone can physically abuse a woman or child, but they do it.
    you missed my point. I am saying we need to work against this mindset.
    Practicing biomedical intervention does not have to be an act of rejecting your child as many of you think. In some cases it embraces the child and the difficulties they might have medically. To dismiss this concept of a child having difficulties and just close your eyes and say theyre perfect is oftentimes an act of unacceptance.
    Phil

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  18. To explain further,
    some parents cannot handle the fact that THEIR child has difficulties. "NO!" they scream in horror and some blame some outside force and some close their eyes and say "NO! NOT MY CHILD...THEY ARE PERFECT THE WAY THEY ARE!!!" and do not get them the medical help they need.
    Im not saying any of you are like that, but i have met people from the ND community who wish they had done biomedical some years back.
    They explained to me that they were too busy 'accepting' their child to understand that there were some real medical issues that needed attention.
    Sorry if that shatters any of your rosey worlds...but its the truth.
    oh, i forgot!!! WE ALL IMAGINED IT!

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  19. Science cannot prove a negative, e.g. science cannot conclusively prove that no vaccines are never nor will ever be a risk factor in autism. However, what's the point of semantic games of this nature? This is basically just a variation of the usual canard: "science has been wrong before." It has been discussed over and over.

    Anecdotes are fine as tangible snapshots of reality. But when you have anecdotes vs. science, it's non-rational to go with anecdotes. For example, on the one hand you have Dr. Neubrander's ad-hoc observations that Me-B12 has an effect in 90% of treated patients. On the other hand there's a small double-blind trial that says there's no such thing. Extremely divergent findings, which cannot be explained by noting that Me-B12 might only work for a small minority of children. In such cases, continuing to believe in something because of "the limitations of science" is where you see real closed-mindedness take place.

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  20. Phil, I quite agree that bad science has led to many ignorant and harmful practices... but the way to discredit bad science is to examine commonly held assumptions, perform solid research studies, submit the resulting conclusions for critical peer review, and thereby generate better science. Yes, it's a slow and laborious process, but there are no reasonable alternatives.

    As for James Watson, I just blogged about his involvement with Autism Speaks.

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  21. abfh, i will check out your blog later on and comment ok? thanks!
    Joseph, why are you bringing anecdotal and vaccines into this?
    I'm not talking about that stuff...im just saying that science doesnt seperate fact from fiction.
    its not in referrence to either one of those points.
    Im also not saying that science has been proven wrong before.
    I am quite capable of making my arguement against science and do not need you interjecting things into my arguements that i didnt.
    I did not say in any of the comments i have posted on this blog that science has been proven wrong before, or that anecdotal is better than science, or vaccines cause autism.
    I said that science does not seperate fact from fiction because science can not prove anything is fiction.
    Thats it.
    Do you agree that science can not prove something is fiction?
    If you do then science doesnt seperate the two. Its not a semantics game and the fact that you think it is probably means that it might just be a little bit over your head.

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  22. abfh,

    I read your blog. I do not disagree with anything you say although i know nothing about autismspeaks so i will just assume that you are correct and say that they have an affiliation or something with James Watson.
    I have never been into any autism groups of any sort. never have and never will...i dont like groups.
    anyways, your blog was good.
    When i use the term "James Watson" i use it in referrence to why science is useless to me. WAY before this controversy erupted i held this view...the latest news only strengthens and underlines my reasons for not believing or trusting in science.
    Thanks for pointing me to your blog, like i said, I don't disagree with what you said and if autism speaks advocates eliminating people with aspergers then i am all for what you wrote.
    Phil

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  23. ".. some close their eyes and say "NO! NOT MY CHILD...THEY ARE PERFECT THE WAY THEY ARE!!!" and do not get them the medical help they need."

    But, Phil, you've done this with yourself. It's evident in your youtube presentations; please watch yourself carefully. You even state, "I'm perfect" and make other similar statements in your newer philcommander2 vids from Spring/Summer '07.

    BTW, everything I say stands in my prior comment. You said nothing to demonstrate to me you that you want to actually discuss the true issues raised.

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  24. I have a happy healthy autistic child.
    My older son was born with a heart-defect. Although this is fairly common with Downs, repairing it has nothing to do with his chromosomal make-up and diagnosis. In other words, acceptance of diversity has nothing to do with ignoring health issues.

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  25. anonymous,

    in one video i made a joke that i wouldnt want to change Jake because he is perfect like me. I laughed when i said it and it should be obvious that it was a joke. I have no way of knowing if you have aspergers but many of my friends do and they sometimes struggle with taking jokes too literally. Either way i think most people picked up that that comment was meant in humor. I am far from perfect. I am always aware that beliefs i hold onto strongly i may someday disagree with. Certain things i wont, but others i will change.
    I am confident in myself...this comes from good self esteem. My parents are responible for this and i try to instill the same in all of my kids and i think that it shows in my videos on youtube.
    My kids all have great self esteem and a great self image.
    Part of this was never making Jake feel like he was 'broke' or needed to be 'cured'. I always felt that he needed his medical issues cured and at one time i called that 'autism'.
    Some still do call it autism...they could be correct technically speaking.
    One could make an argument that these medical issues are technically autism.
    The ND community calls them comorbidities. The problem is that not a lot of other people call them that.
    I agree with the NDs view of it all. I think comorbidities should be seperated from the label of autism. As of right now though they are not.
    I feel that the ND community and the medical profession and parents should work to changing this. But I feel that the ND community spends too much time attacking parents for wanting to 'cure' their kids rather than educating them in a respectful way.
    I think some members of the ND crowd are their own worst enemies and hurt their cause.
    But thats true in any group...groups usually attract fringe elements (not all members, just a few) and those fringe elements make the most noise and often lack common sense.
    They make whole communities look bad.
    Every community has this problem and yours is no different.
    The thing the other members have to do is step up to the plate and not endorse those fringe elements.

    I feel that i have reached out to a lot of people in the biomedical community with a message that they may be trying to 'cure' genetic elements that should be embraced.
    Many people who believe in curing autism have attacked me for my lack of scientific evidence that autism is genetic...lol. i get attacked by both communities for my disbelief in science! ironic.

    what are the true issues you feel have been raised that i dont want to discuss?
    I will discuss anything ya want...we can even argue, or fight. i love it all. i could armwrestle you to see who's right too.
    how about we do this, whoever can hold their breath the longest wins all the arguments...ready? GO!

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  26. What was it Freud said? IIRC, that "there are no jokes"; that there's "only truth".

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  27. Phil you come across as a silly little know-nothing. Seriously.

    "When i say this people think it is because i dont understand science! Thats too funny. I say this because I understand science all too well. Its like someone telling you that you would like a person if you got to know them and you say "ive known them for twenty years and lived with them for ten...thats why i DONT like them! i know them all too well! LOL"

    You really are a hysterical comic version of a knowledgable person. You are really quite dumb about autism and astonishingly uninformed about the "ND". For instance, "ND" started as a slur created by Lenny Schafer and was picked up by his fans to be used as an insult. It's kind of like the "n" word for "African americans". Some of the autistic adults picked it up to show that the term didn't hurt their feelings, in the same way as some Black people "owning" the "n" word or women owning the "b" word.

    Seriously, you are making a fool of yourself all the time. All the time. Open your mouth, Phil, and soemthing astoshingly stupid comes out. Set down to address the bloggers and it's the same pattented Phil "Commander" Dumb Garbage.

    You like your anecdotes. Your anecdote about the ND people wishing they had tried biomed earlier, means that people who are NOT ND contacted you and said they wished they'd tried biomed earlier. The neurodiversity folks, by definition wouldn't be contacting a scientific illiterate such as yourself and whining about how they wish they had started on B12 or the GFCF earlier, in time to cure their kid!

    But you live in this fantasy world where you are AN IMPORTANT MAN with a MESSAGE.

    I won't LOL. Your attempts are really pretty pathetic. But if you ever can get around to actually studying biochemistry brain development, physiology and neurology so that you don't make a fool of yourself when you comment on science, then you might have something to say that is worth listening to. Right now all you are doing is misleading poor people who are buying your working class, t-shirt wearing "I is da otizm man" image.

    A parent refusing to put pressure on a child to use the toilet, to me sounds like an idiot. That's not neurodiversity and it's not what acceptance is about. Not if it's within the child's ability to use the toilet. This is the same kind of extreme stupidity shown by someoen who would inject their kid wtih methyl B12 on no evidence other than anecdote and the word of the con artist, Neubrander and his other victims.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Suzanne,
    Hey, aren't you member number one of the philcommander fanclub?
    I don't believe I ever said "acceptance of diversity" causes people to ignore health issues.
    I feel that the ND community does a poor job of getting their beliefs across to the parents who are into biomedical intervention and parents who are new comers to the world of autism. This leads to confusion and some of them ignore you guys and some of them embrace you and some misunderstand and do not even try to get their kids speech therapy because they worry that they are changing who their child is. They are in the minority but that doesn't mean their child is less important.
    It all has to do with definitions.

    Its like when you work for a company and that company starts to develop its own lingo. Then an outsider comes in and asks a question like "Where do I pick up my item" and the answer is "You gotta go to the out dock but you first have to check it down".
    The person is confused because the lingo is exclusive to that company.

    The ND community has done this by redefining autism as being 100% genetic. Im not saying its not. Im just saying that the true definition doesn't describe it that way.
    Im not saying that the definition shouldn't be changed. All I am saying is that YOU guys know what you mean by the term 'autism' but most others don't.
    The same with 'accept'. This is what I was alluding to earlier when I spoke of 'accepting'running contrary to the concept of getting involved. I meant it. That's what accept truly means.
    That is not how your community is using the word accept.
    But the reason uses the word accept the way it does is because your community separates medical issues from genetic issues.
    But the majority of society doesn't.
    In my videos I try to tell the biomedical crowd to separate the medical from the genetic. The medical side of autism (what your community would call comorbidities) should be cured and the genetic side should be embraced.
    Ive talked to many parents who said they never thought of it that way before. They even said that they have started to recognize symptoms of aspergers in themselves and their spouses.
    I am one person and I have gotten through to a lot of parents and made them see that many of their kids characteristics that they were trying to cure are the same characteristics that they have.
    They have altered their view of their childs autism and their approach.
    So at least I am personally making a difference for the better in some kids lives.
    Just wanted to give everyone here another reason to love me.
    Phil

    ReplyDelete
  29. the rude anonymous person.

    It sounds as if you are the spokesperson for the neurodiverse crowd.
    I don't read blogs (this is the first one ive ever been involved on) so i didnt know that the abbreviation ND was offensive.
    Thanks for setting me straight oh wise person of the ND crowd who wont sign your name.

    you wrote
    "Open your mouth, Phil, and soemthing astoshingly stupid comes out."

    I am sorry you find me astoshingly stupid. HAHAHA
    I am sorry, we all have typos, but that was really the wrong time for you to have a typo! LOL

    I can see you are a person of little reason so i wont try to reason with you.
    Thanks
    Phil (the astoshingly stupid guy)

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous is quoting Freud?
    Now theres a scientist if there ever was one! LOL
    I do love his grandsons paintings though (Lucian Freud).
    Hey anonymous, take that 'cigar' out of your mouth, i can't understand anything youre saying.

    Phil (The astoshingly stupid guy)

    ReplyDelete
  31. Note to anonymous commenters: I don't mind anonymous comments, and I allow them for reader convenience. However, note that it is quite easy to pick a name by choosing the "Other" radio button when you comment. You can give yourself any handle you want, which helps distinguish you from other anonymous commenters.

    ReplyDelete
  32. not a Philcommander fan10/22/2007 4:54 PM

    Anonymous who quoted Freud is not the same anonymous as me, the one who said you were a comic image of someone who actually knows something. There is no leader of the 'ND" and I don't speak for them all, I just am familiar with where the majority of the advocates are coming from.

    The fact that you are antivaccine just emphasizes your sad condition of ignorance. There's a cure for that though, Phil, it's called EDUCATION. :)

    Phil, wrote,
    "I feel that the ND community does a poor job of getting their beliefs across to the parents who are into biomedical intervention and parents who are new comers to the world of autism."

    Problem is Phil that you are so busy playing Mr. wannabe YouTube Docta on da amazin' 3 inch screen that you haven't even tried to familiarize yourself with the world of those who promote the idea of neurodiversity and acceptance. Even though it's very accessible. You decided you knew what was up with the "ND" without even knowing the background on the term "ND".

    It's like you walking into an adoption agency and saying,

    "Hey Dudes and Dudettes! I betcha I could raise me a' Jap kid. Heck I like Sushi, even dat raw fish kind and my wife makes some great chop suey!"

    That's how uninformed you are about autistic adults.

    Having your heart in the right place only goes so far.

    Did you notice I also had a typo in "patented"?
    Typing fast and making a typo is not the same as not spelling correctly and using words one does not understand, Phil.

    Maybe you like to look up the real spellings of "deliniate" and "arguement".

    There is no such thing as an condition that is 100% genetic. There you go again showing total disdain for the "ND" and showing your utter ignorance of the issues.

    Get a clue Phil. Get a tiny little clue. Spend about 8 hours reading lots of the autistic adult and neurodiversity blogs. I suggest the ones found at autism-hub.co.uk You might actually learn something from people like Prometheus, Bartholomew Cubbins and Amanda Baggs (I haven't forgotten how you attacked Amanda like an oaf, taking the word of a sociopath that Amanda isn't "real.") Keep an eye on CNN dude expect more from the "ND" there.

    some details here also here.

    I must say I am relieved that you haven't been trying to treat your son with biomed in the last year or so. For that Phil, mad props. Now, go get some textbooks on biochemistry and neurophysiology and brain development. When you "get" half of what's in them, let us know what you think about science, huh?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Amanda,
    "Go to your own "biomed" people. Tell them not to change their God given child. tell them they make their children suffer....".

    OK, I won't feed my kid LSD to scramble his brain further. I'll just take out the mercury that made him abnormal and try to put him back in the same condition he was when he was born...normal.
    You fried your brain yourself and now you have to live with it. My kid never used the drugs you did and it's about time you shut up and stop including yourself in the same class as him.

    There is no acceptance for people who were foolish enough to use LSD 5 or 6 times a day. These wack jobs are not owed anything by our society for destroying the brain they were given. You are no better than a drunk in the gutter and I have no pity for you.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Sherlock Holmes10/22/2007 9:39 PM

    Wow, Fore Sam, and here I was thinking Amanda was just a devoted, home-schooling mother of three. Boy are her kids going to be surprised when they find out that their mom took LSD 5 or 6 times a day. "No better than a drunk in the gutter," whoa. Who knew?

    ReplyDelete
  35. to the anonymous writer who has changed his name to NOT A FAN OF PHIL COMMANDER,

    That is a funny name and glad to see you have a sense of humor!

    you wrote
    "There is no leader of the 'ND" and I don't speak for them all, I just am familiar with where the majority of the advocates are coming from."

    You do speak for them all, you are a self appointed spokesperson. I do not speak for the biomedical crowd, I would never be so presumptuous to feel that I could.
    The fact that you over and over talk about your own personal beliefs as those of the entire ND community clearly shows that you have the arrogance of a wanna be leader.
    That's why I bother you so much. You feel that I have established myself as some kind of spokesperson and you are jealous of my position (which you perceive as being authorative).
    So you are either jealous of me or have a crush on me...I cant decide.
    But either way you have WAY too much passion concerning me.
    I have over 300 subscribers on youtube. That's basically a good yard sale. out of the millions and millions of people in the world I got 300 paying attention to me. This is something that I should feel proud of? LOL
    I was in a rock band and we had that many people see us live.
    I don't want fame or notoriety and I have neither...just the way I like it.
    you're the one who thinks im important...not me. If you want though I will let you join the philcommander fan club...I have shirts and undergarments with my picture. They are free if you send me a used MB12 syringe...that way I know you really have been loyal to me your leader. Want some purple Kool Aid?


    So here is why I wont spend anymore time talking to you (well, I probably will LOL, you're an easy target).
    I wrote that the ND crowd has done a bad job getting their message across to people.
    you replied that it is I who have not done a good job researching your beliefs.

    I hate to point out the obvious and I apologize to all readers who already know this but sometimes there are individuals who need it spoon fed to them...open up 'Not a fan of MR Wonderful'
    It is the ND community that is trying to change peoples perceptions. The onus is on them to reach out to those they are trying to 'enlighten' and give them convincing arguments so that they can see the errors of their ways.
    It is not up to parents to seek you guys out and try and understand your message...it is up to you to reach out and change the world.
    As it is many in the ND community would rather just attack and call us derogative names.
    you know why?
    Either you are too lazy, either you're too stupid (astoshingly so),
    either your message is wrong and you know you cant get through to us because you are in error, or either you need yourselves a good leader (imp available and I work for praise and adoration).
    Or maybe the ones writing the blogs and making the videos just have too much hate in them and are more worried about their self importance than helping children.

    Or maybe theres another answer...I sure hope so. It doesn't make sense that when you want to change parents perspectives so that they treat their children better you call the parents names and attack them.
    Most of them blow you off.
    You are a perfect example of someone filled with attacking hate.
    I don't know you so maybe there is a reason you have so much hate in you and that reason may not be anything to joke about so I wont attack you.

    Ive spoken to dozens and dozens of adults with autism...some with kids some without.
    On the phone and through email.
    Anytime someone talks with me on the phone they come away liking me.
    I would be willing to talk to you too...on the phone and talk about our differences. I have no problem with that.
    Somehow I feel you have so much hate that you would never talk to me...I hope im wrong.
    As far as the amanda baggs thing...with the information you all have in front of you I understand how anyone would come to the conclusion that imp a bad guy for doing what I did.
    but theres a ton of information that nobody knows...and never will. Im not a bad guy and I really don't care about amanda either way. She never did me any wrong.
    you wrote

    "Keep an eye on CNN dude expect more from the "ND" there."

    YOU CALLED ME "DUDE"!!!
    awwwww, see!
    I knew you had a crush on me!
    You should change your name to
    Closet Fan Of Phil Commander, Leader Of The Autistic World!

    ReplyDelete
  36. And for all of those who think I need to study science matters to understand them...what makes you think I haven't?
    The more literature I read on science the more I grew to distrust it. This was in the early 90s well before kids.
    finally after reading books by Hawkings I decided that science was meaningless. I understood science and still do...I just don't agree with it.
    it all comes down to James Watson.
    and all of you are living proof of why science is a joke.
    Joe disregards and attacks science in his new blog because it doesn't agree with his views.
    If he and others would scrutinize the science and studies that do agree with his views he would also find that they are meaningless.
    If someone came out with a study that all of the world agreed was good science that said PHILCOMMANDER videos improve the lives of autistic people, I would be the first one to say that study is a pure waste of time and meaningless.
    I am consistent. That cant be said for those on both sides of the debate.

    ReplyDelete
  37. PC: "And for all of those who think I need to study science matters to understand them...what makes you think I haven't?"

    Oh, I don't know. Maybe statements like this:

    "The more literature I read on science the more I grew to distrust it."

    Or this:
    "finally after reading books by Hawkings I decided that science was meaningless. I understood science and still do...I just don't agree with it. "

    Sorry Phil, I realize your intentions are pure but your thoughts and words are in serious need of chelation.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Phil distrusts science, but clearly doesn't have any issues using tools produced by science, like the internet or YouTube. What method do you think is best to learn about reality, Phil? Crystal balls? Astrology?

    ReplyDelete
  39. John: Once again, wrong Amanda.

    ReplyDelete
  40. @ John Best: You've admitted that you never tested for mercury or heavy metals before subjecting your son to years and years of chelation. Your rationale? No need since all autism is caused by mercury poisoning.

    Unless of course you you see an opportunity to viciously attack an adult autistic who holds views contrary to your own. Then you seem quite comfortable with the idea that autism can be caused by LSD or a result of false diagnosis.

    Lucky for you, no one is speculating on why or if your son is autistic.

    He will grow up facing challenges and obstacles that you, and people like you, have helped to create. Hate on, little man.

    One final note: Acceptance is not resignation or apathy. It requires more work and commitment than either.

    ReplyDelete
  41. yeah Phil, you know who I am. You also know that my attention span is shorter than most any comment you make, so no, I don't always understand you. I DO believe you said:
    "But there are medical issues that are also a part of that vague definition of 'autism'.
    so many parents accept 'autism' and don't know that they are accepting medical conditions."
    or was it this?
    "And i have spoken to dozens of parents who were all about 'accepting' autism and slowly learnt that they were ignoring health issues. They were doing NOTHING for their children but accepting them. "
    I think you are still misunderstanding "acceptance" I don't know of any Autism Hub blogger who advocates doing nothing for children. That's simply ridiculous! Even in Joel's The Secret to Autistics" it is clear that the secret is NOT in letting them run wild or stagnate. Maybe you think because that's how some parents will define acceptance, that the word should not be used. please.
    The criteria for diagnosing Autism do not include GI troubles, nor seizures, nor any physical health concern. see also my comment RE Downs/heart-defects. Just because they are common with the package(are they?) , doesn't mean they are part of autism.
    good for you if you can help someone overcome their need to cure their child.
    I cannot remain rational with such people. My MO is now to post posAutive videos, and try to steer clear of maniacs ;) (as you see here, I'm not doing very well with that goal)

    ReplyDelete
  42. I found it easy to accept my son, because he is my son!

    ReplyDelete
  43. foresam
    illegal drugs do not cause autism.
    got it....and i believe you.
    - i'm just as fond of you - but i have to admit i'm not the same Amanda you obviously have a mad fixation/obsession for.

    ReplyDelete
  44. sherlock
    nice name...thanks for saying i'm devoted - i do try. (actually i have five kids)
    lsd several times a day??- its a surprise to even me.

    ReplyDelete
  45. phil if you don't think the science bloggers have any hope for them - WHY are you commenting at all?
    to pick a fight?
    they've already got foresam for that...
    and besides... you didnt say "cure" their God given child...you said
    "change"
    but i thought we could change our kids... just a little b-12 shot in the bum and you "changed" Jake...
    you tend to change (theres that word again) what you have to say based on your audience..
    you aught to run for office,

    ReplyDelete
  46. Feel Commander10/23/2007 10:17 AM

    Joe, 'ND' refers to Neurodiverse and certainly is not meant as a put down, just an abbreviation. I have many friends in that crowd. I wouldn't be offended in the least by being called someone who is in the biomedical crowd.

    Helpful tip #1 - When accused of bigotry, always remember to preface your defense with "Some of my Best friends are ____."

    ReplyDelete
  47. NM,
    LSD does not cause autiswm but it can cause LSD psychosis. Confused teens who wind up in a nuthouse because they're suicidal might deserve some sort of diagnosis besides wacko. When they are delusional and think they are an elf, schizophrenic sounds like a good choice to me. I guess that's why she was diagnosed with it. When her mother went diagnosis shopping and discovered autism, maybe it sounded like less of a stigma. But, we all know autism is diagnosed by age 3, not age 19.
    So you see, I'm not attcking an adult autistic...I'm pointing out a sham who is a nut case due to drug abuse.

    It's so typical of one with inferior intelligence to claim I hate autistics. I hate autism, not autistics. I also dislike shams who promote a false impression of what autism is.

    You're right, acceptance is not apathy or resignation. It's pure stupidity. Autistic children need decent parents to help them overcome their disabilities. Accepting them is accepting defeat. I'm glad I didn't have quitters like you playing hockey with me when we were down by a couple of goals.

    "Unless of course you you see an opportunity to viciously attack an adult autistic who holds views contrary to your own. Then you seem quite comfortable with the idea that autism can be caused by LSD or a result of false diagnosis.

    Lucky for you, no one is speculating on why or if your son is autistic.

    He will grow up facing challenges and obstacles that you, and people like you, have helped to create. Hate on, little man.

    One final note: Acceptance is not resignation or apathy. It requires more work and commitment than either." said NM (no mind)

    ReplyDelete
  48. "this is my final fit, my final bellyache"

    its been real guys.
    really interesting.
    I have grown and changed my views about autism amazingly so since i have talked to the autistic community
    But i bid you all a fond farewell...following the advice of that "not amanda b person."
    I hope the best for you all...and for those of you who have kids.
    I hope you don't all go to ND HELL for your beliefs.
    You do know what ND HELL is dont ya?
    Its spending eternity looking for Bigfoot with Satan as your guide.
    He keeps saying to you (as you trudge through fire and brimstone caverns) "I think he's right up ahead guys. I know some people and they told me he's right around the corner and I believe their story although I have no proof".
    You will all do this for eternity.
    If you see Bigfoot in Hell could you tell him to return my Lochness Monster Doll he stole from me when i went camping as a kid?
    thanks!
    Anyways...just to leave you all with an outrageous quote that i honestly do believe about science i leave you with this.
    In 1633 Galileo was arrested.
    That was a highpoint in human affairs.
    He is the father of confusion.
    You are all his children.
    But I love all of you anyway ...especially Suzanne...she is the number one PHILCOMMANDER fan!
    Anyways guys, you really are a nice bunch and I did enjoy this debating and all...Keep on fighting the good fight for the acceptance of all.

    One last word then i will be gone...I truly admire all of those who have autism and embrace the label knowing that they will be looked down on by some in society.
    You are pioneers and i have nothing but the utmost respect for you and what you are doing...changing societies views of the discriminated.
    Martin Luther King Jr. is my hero and I thank you all for your courage.
    I dont think a lot of you understand me or my views...those who have spoken to me in person have come to like me...all of them.
    I really leave with no bitterness...I just don't think i can get my point across to any of you.
    It's no big deal in the end...Ive been neglecting a lot of the emails i get from parents asking me questions that i couldnt possibly know the answers to.
    Im also doing more videos showing RDI exercises.
    I really wish you could all understand though that Jake had some very real challenges involving his diet and nutrition.
    GFCF, SCD, MB12, and to a lesser extent Glutathione did so much for him its amazing.
    I just wish you could understand that.
    But science wont let you.
    And for that Galileo is searching for Bigfoot right now...

    ReplyDelete
  49. Hate is a blunt instrument, John. Just like those little balls you like to smack around for leisure, it rarely lands where you hope or intend. I would guess that you have a garage full of bent clubs to show for your patience on the links.

    In this case, you can expect the majority to land back in your lap.

    ReplyDelete
  50. I can find this as #20 of the Woo Handbook:

    20. Finally, when you’ve used up all the above tactics, say you’re not going to waste any more time with the skeptics you’ve been debating because they’re too sad, stupid, closed-minded, ______ (insert other flaw the skeptic has) to understand your brilliant arguments. Make a big grandiose statement and exit to start anew somewhere else.

    But I think Phil must be a woo pioneer, considering that Skeptico didn't think to add:

    - Tell your opponents they could go to hell for their views.

    - Explain that Galileo's arrest was a high point in human affairs.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Sherlock Holmes10/23/2007 11:33 AM

    Fore Sam, you unfortunate chap. Remember when you were in the military, and became unaccountably popular with the "ladies," and then they gave you that special medicine? They were hoping to turn you into The Terminator, but instead they got a poor fellow who can do nothing more than attack the disabled by blog. LSD indeed. Very sad. They may have shredded your records, but the proof lives on.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Wow, nice discussion.

    I went back to the front page and looked for the C*bie word, and guess what, it wasn't on the front page of the post and was introduced by the first commenter.

    Talk about going off topic just to stir the pot.

    I think someone is feeling that a word is being used about them when that word is being used to refer to some other group of folks.

    But hey, if your paranoid enough to think that someone is talking about you just when a specific word comes up then maybe you have classified Yourself.

    Think about it!

    ReplyDelete
  53. No, I think someone is worried the word might be used by their kid.

    ReplyDelete
  54. google ninja10/26/2007 3:14 PM

    philcommander,why don't you explain to the people on this blog how you came to do substantial jail time?

    fore sam, why don't you explain to the people on this blog why you went from a career in the military to a career gambler very, very suddenly and dishonorably?

    ReplyDelete
  55. I'll leave that because personal attacks are not enough to get a message removed according to my stated policy, but those ad-hominems were uncalled for.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Sorry I missed this comment Google Ninja...Yeah, I did a few years for hunting down and murdering a guy who insulted me on blogs.
    I got released early though because after reviewing the case they decided that the murder was justified because the bloggers comments were so idiotic that the blogger deserved to die.
    Dont worry though...i have learnt my lesson and would never hunt anyone down again :)

    ReplyDelete
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