Tuesday, April 07, 2009

Very Quick Note About Self-Concept and Achievement

I was looking for something else entirely and I happened to come across an old paper titled "Self-Concept of Ability and School Achievement" (Brookover & Thomas, 1964.) I thought it was pertinent to the discussion around the BRAINHE study on neurodiversity and particularly Jake Crosby's contention that self-confidence does not have an effect on "real" success. His claim was counter-intuitive all in itself. This might also be of interest to Billy Cresp, who appears to believe intelligence is the only variable that matters.

The abstract follows.

Three hypotheses concerning self-concept were tested using a sample of 1,050 seventh grade students and a selected subsample of 110 over- and under-achieving students. A significant positive relationship was found between self-concept of ability and grade point average; this relationship persisted even when measured intelligence was controlled. Specific self-concepts of ability related to specific areas of academic achievement were found; in some areas these were better predictors of achievement in the subject than general self-concept of ability. Self-concept was significantly and positively related to the perceived evaluation of significant others. A direction for further research is indicated.


(Emphasis mine)

188 comments:

  1. Is this a correlation or were the researchers in this very dated study saying there was a casual relationship between confidence and achievement. Also, there is the age-old question of which came first the chicken or the egg. Did these people achieve because they were confident or were they confident because they achieved.

    Also, I note the last line directions for further research is indicated. Maybe you could give us on update in the further research that took place in the 44 years since that study was published.

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  2. No need to get so defensive, Jon. It's just a paper I found that I thought I'd mention in passing. I'm not selling it as the last word on the subject.

    If I do further research on the matter, I'll let you know. It's not an area I'm very familiar with.

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  3. But it IS an area that I am reasonably familiar with.

    I'll wrote a bit on in soon here.

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  4. I agree with jonathan's questioning of the relationship between confidence and achievement. I wonder of what magnitude the correlation was between self-concept of ability and gpa. I doubt it was a lot when controlled for intelligence. I doubt it would be the high self-concept of ability itself that caused higher gpa, but the extra motivation to achieve that may come from that high self-concept. I wonder if among students of same intelligence, various circumstances enable some of them to initially to get some higher grades, increasing their self-concept ability, which may motivate them to achieve more, and to get slightly higher gpas.

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  5. Generally when they say the association remains after controlling for the potential mediator, it means that it continues to be statistically significant. That is, intelligence does not explain it fully.

    The other challenge is probably valid; we don't know in which direction the association is causal.

    I look forward to David's input.

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  6. Maybe not strictly relevant, but that's the way my mind works... One factor that seems to be overlooked in all studies, whatever their biasis, is the value of success to the student. If a student doesn't place much importance on school success, then measures of self-confidence have no validity.

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  7. Good discussion- I've found over the years that confidence (or the appearance of confidence in come cases) trumps actual intelligence more often than not... purely anecdotal, of course... and I also think Catana brings up a good point.

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  8. What a misrepresentation of what I said, if not a lie. I merely expressed skepticism as to just how "realistic" that "extra confidence" among those NDs were in that BRAINHE study, and how much it reflected reality based on the misrepresentations of autism by neurodiversity.

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  9. If we can't work this out here, read what I said for yourself.
    http://autismnaturalvariation.blogspot.com/2009/03/aoas-token-aspie-reacts-to-brainhe.html

    You've also misused the word "token," a limited inclusion of members of a minority group. I am 1 in eight people listed as contributors on the AoA site.
    http://www.ageofautism.com/contact-us.html

    Yet, autism affects no moore than 1in 67, which is pretty high, but not enough to match the prevalence of 1 in eight on the AoA site.

    More likely, you and all the other NDs inadequately represent the views of autistic people. You form this little unity over the internet that does not carry over to real life. I have never met an autistic person with an ND perspective, and I've met plenty of autistic people.

    Plus, you are not further advancing your ideologies as you may think, just helping to advance the agendas of pharmaceutical companies and other organizations that do not have your best interests. Under "Norway autism prevalence," your blog was at the top of the google results, which seems pretty suspicious. Since when was an ND blog the best internet resource for autism prevalence of an entire country? How did your blog make it to the top of the google results for such a topic?

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  10. How did your blog make it to the top of the google results for such a topic?

    Oh man. Don't you know the Illuminati controls everything? Clifford Shoemaker said himself that Dave Seidel had seized control over Wikipedia.

    In all seriousness, some of my posts have pretty good Google rank. If I may say so myself, it's because people like them and link to them. Search, for example, "prevalence of autism in adults."

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  11. This isn't my field, but I believe there's been a lot of research on academic self concept & achievement.

    A good entree would be Kevin McGrew's resources

    Beyond IQ



    As promised, and ahead of schedule, today I make available the results of over 5 years of work---Beyond IQ: A Model of Academic Competence and Motivation. The gist of the Beyond IQ project is simple - to present a preliminary conceptual framework from which to organize non-cognitive (conative) variables important for school learning...those essential student learning facilitators that are important above and beyond intelligence/cognitive ability.


    Go to the link above for ways to access the resources.

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  12. First up, modern theories on motivation hold that confidence and achievement are recursive and feed into each other. Confidence allows a person to constantly strive to acheive to their capacity, whilst acheivement provides feedback that allows the building of confidence.

    Whereas David M Andrews has demonstrated superior knowledge and understanding of this dynamic (which he would be expected to, given his vocation and education) Jonathan shows a worrying lack of understanding of these models - assuming he is aware of their existence.

    Secondly, Jakes parents told him to say: "You form this little unity over the internet that does not carry over to real life."

    This is odd indeed. Amongst the self declared ND people that frequent this blog, we have a internationally published therapist/academic, and a national director of a large autism charity. On the wider scale, we have self identified ND people (no lurker I'm under no obligation to breach confidentiality just to tell you who they are) working with major transport authourities on autism friendly projects, senior level academics who are part of national initiatives to introduce assistive devices to people with autism, and people who have influenced the UK governments own official technical definition of autism. This is without mentioning organisations that adopt ND-friendly client centreed approaches or the national (and international) organisations (such as WFOT) that are rapidly adopting more and more ND thinking, even if they are not connecting it to ND as a movement.

    "I have never met an autistic person with an ND perspective, and I've met plenty of autistic people."

    I'd have to question what is meant by 'plenty' and 'met' and whether Jake is competantly assessing what an 'ND perspective' is. Given his track record, this last point is highly unlikely.

    Not only have I met autistic people who are explictly ND, but have also met several who make very ND statements. This extends to my current (stroke rehab) coworkers who have autistic children, as well as at least two of the local and national autism charities I am involved in.

    Very few people have heard of the term 'ND', yet the number of people who display ND-like thinking is significantly higher. In my last two clinical settings, the ND-like thinking was regarded as demanded by relevant Codes of Ethics, and was seen as merely being 'client-centered'.

    In addition, despite having an ASD, having a social group including many people with ASD's, despite working for or otherwise being involved with two autism charities, depsite attending conferences on autism, despite knowing a disproportionately high amount of coworkers with ASD's or with relatives with ASD's, and despite being a active member of online and offline autism and ND movements, I have very rarely came across a self-declared ND person who holds anything remotely like the views normally attributed to 'ND proponents' by people such as Crosby, Doherty and Cresp.

    This leads me to think that they don't know what they're talking about.

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  13. Anon, why don't you just get to the point, instead of just being a bold faced liar?

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  14. "Whereas David N Andrews has demonstrated superior knowledge and understanding of this dynamic (which he would be expected to, given his vocation and education) Jonathan shows a worrying lack of understanding of these models - assuming he is aware of their existence."

    Thank you, anon... corrected your typo there. Hope you don't mind. As for JM... I'm telling you - I do thing that he is not aware of such dynamics, which is why I said what I said about his lack of listening during his social psychology lecture courses: he took what was an academic comment (one, incidentally, which I am very well qualified to make about his learning) and made it personal. Why?

    Because he knew I was fucking right, and he hates that.


    "... modern theories on motivation hold that confidence and achievement are recursive and feed into each other. Confidence allows a person to constantly strive to acheive to their capacity, whilst acheivement provides feedback that allows the building of confidence."

    Oh yes! There has been a serious shift in thinking throughout psychology - especially in the application areas of educational and occupational/organisational psychology - towards system-thinking: behaviour isn't a purely individual issue - it happens as a result of the interaction of many factors.


    "Anon, why don't you just get to the point, instead of just being a bold faced liar?"

    Cresp, why don't you stop wasting our time, and just ... fuck off outa here?

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  15. "This isn't my field, but I believe there's been a lot of research on academic self concept & achievement."

    Liz... the link you gave is about one of the sources would have posted. Well done.

    As you say, there is much research on this. It has been discussed in many books on the psychology of teaching and learning, including (as far as I'm aware):-

    McCormick & Pressley; Educational Psychology - Learning, Instruction, Assessment

    Fontana; Psychology for Teachers

    Gage & Berliner; Educational Psychology

    Fox; The Psychology of Teaching and Learning

    And these are just secondary sources in which the matter is examined as part of the curriculum content for those intending to become teachers, school/educational psychologists and researchers in educational sciences.

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  16. David, why don't those like you stop wasting others' time with your obstructive nonsense?

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  17. "Anon, why don't you just get to the point, instead of just being a bold faced liar?"!

    I did get to the point quite quickly and succintly. If you didn't get it you should have asked for a reasonable level of explanation (you tend to ask for ridiculous levels of detail) and shown willingness to learn (you have refused to look at references in the past after stating that you can't be bothered)

    What I'm talking about here isn't even psychology 101- it's stuff taught as contributory disciplines to medical and health care professionals. Reeeeaaaalllly basic stuff you learn in your first semester.

    In my own field of study, the motivational theories are incorporated into things like Kielhofners MOHO, or the KAWA model.

    In regards to Code of Ethics and Standards. Sorry, but all the organisations I mention, as well as their equivilant in other allied health professions have their codes and standards freely available on their websites or from thier organisational libraries, as does the Department of Health. You can look these up anytime.

    All relevant documents that I am legally and professionally obligated to follow indicate that assessment and treatment (including interpersonal conduct) must be client centered and based on needs. Mere prescence of a symptom is not adequate grounds for intervention, nor is treatment to be diagnosis led.

    Although clinical reasoning (regardless of which model you follow) involves conditional reasoning, all reasonable factors, including the clients wishes and perception of the problem, must be taken into account.

    It is part of my job to stay up to date with these developments, for autism and well as many other conditions and clinical settings, and I must show that I have done so on a routine basis to both my professional supervisor as well as the regulatory and administrative bodies. You, on the other hand, are some guy in a attic somewhere.

    I know who any rational objective observer would think is talking shit.

    As for personal contact with people with autism who are ND - sorry, but there's nothing I can do to convince you I have met such people, as I certianly do not trust you to not misuse your knowledge of my real life identity. Also , you certainly show that you confuse the property of thinking ND, which can be displyed without declaring an ND-identity, with the ND movement which is a group of self-declared ND-thinking people. I could (and have) pointed out ND thinking to you before, and in this thread, yet you do not show capacity to grasp the distinction.

    Sorry, but I'm not going to just talk your word that I'm a liar, nor should anyone else. Quote me and provide references indicating that I am a liar, or apologise if you can't.

    Do not consider replying to me until you do either.

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  18. "Oh yes! There has been a serious shift in thinking throughout psychology - especially in the application areas of educational and occupational/organisational psychology"

    Indeed, occupational psychology is highly relevant to my field of work, although the use of the word 'occupational' has a slightly different meaning in my clinical context than it likely does in yours (work and vocational, versus daily living and life skills).

    In both cases, the use of the prinicples behind motivational spirals, 'just right' challenges, and zones of proximal development to achieve a clinical outcome are very similar. I would use low performance skill activities to provide success to a client, to increase self-efficacy and value, to increase volition to use performance skills, to increase the grade of activities that can be performed, to increase self-efficacy......you get the picture.

    Autism services (or my current setting of stroke rehab, upper limb rehab and falls prevention) use these principles extensively.

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  19. "David, why don't those like you stop wasting others' time with your obstructive nonsense?"

    Cresp, you are the one who obstructs, not me.

    Get the fuck over yourself or go the fuck away!

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  22. (consolidating two posts)

    Ah! Anon, now I know what you do!

    Often health care related but actually more educational than anything!

    I've always gotten on better with people in your field than in my own here in Finland...

    And yes... I get the picture perfectly!

    And the research is actually clear about the effectiveness of those approaches.

    Which suggests very clearly that Cresp's and Mitchell's issues are not matters of diability: they are matters of 'can't be fucking arsed!'

    What you think?

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  23. I believe Cresp and Mitchell put some considerable time into what they do. This is not the same as putting considerable time into reflecting upon their learning or critiquing it for the deeper meaning.

    Almost all the anti-ND autistics have significantly higher levels of objective function than is reported subjectively, to the point where their impairments could be considered to have a large psychogenic (but no less real or valid) factor, were their diagnosis MS or similar.

    But, as I've pointed out before, anyone who can write about the whole ND antiND thing is going to be seen as having more function than someone who can't, because of sociocultural values towards literacy. I've seen people who appear to be significantly more capable than their actual function indicates - the problems of clinicians and public members overestimating global function due to verbal function is very well known in autism services. The antiND people here fall into that trap constantly, I think we should avoid becoming like them.

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  24. "I have very rarely came across a self-declared ND person who holds anything remotely like the views normally attributed to 'ND proponents' by people such as Crosby, Doherty and Cresp."
    Anon, I wonder what type of professional you are and why you won't display any identity for yourself other than anon.

    I'd like you to say why you're distancing yourself and the other ND adherents from their real views. I'm not sure what you mean by "thinking ND ".

    David, I'm against your obstruction of people who are trying to get progressive things done, making them have to waste time arguing against you to show you don't have credibility in the issue. Get over myself? What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

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  25. Lurker- you were told not to reply to me until you could substantiate your accusations.

    Anyway:

    "Anon, I wonder what type of professional you are and why you won't display any identity for yourself other than anon."

    I've actually given many, many hints through my use of terms, the models I reference and the organisations I have refered too. I would not be hard for someone with competant clinical or academic experience in the area of autism to identify my profession.

    I do not identity myself for several reasons :

    my identity is irrelevent to the arguement.
    I am under no responsibility to identify myself.
    I am easily traceable through my real name and profession, even without using any professional register
    I have been threatened in the past for disagreeing with someone on a much less personal and contentious topic (it was telling them that they had misunderstood a sentence of mine) so I am cautious.

    "I'd like you to say why you're distancing yourself and the other ND adherents from their real views"

    Easy - I'm not. There are exceptionatly few ND adherents that I've worked for, met, read, or held discussions with that hold the views attributed to them by yourself, Doherty, Crosby or Mitchell - if any at all.

    As I've pointed out before, there are several - Stanton, Arnold, Andrews for a start, who are or have been actively involved with supporting people with impairments, or with organisations that offer support to people with impairments.

    Any claim that ND proponents oppose treatment, or do not care for people with LFA is directly contradicted by the nature of their offline work, their research, publications, advocacy work or their involvement in autism interventions.

    "I'm not sure what you mean by "thinking ND ""

    Probably why you confuse the identity with the philosophy and can't see it even when it's pointed out to you.

    Simply put, if one believes autistic traits are intrinsically defective and should automatically be treated, then one is not ND (and quite likely to be violating professional ethics). If one leans towards client-led and needs based treatment (that is, treating the incompatibility between the persons performance skill and the performance demands of the environment) even if it means the trait remains, then one is leaning towards ND thinking - even if one does not identify oneself as such.

    This is your second notice now - quote my 'lie' and show why it's a lie.

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  26. "As I've pointed out before, there are several - Stanton, Arnold, Andrews for a start, who are or have been actively involved with supporting people with impairments, or with organizations that offer support to people with impairments." Anon, that itself doesn't support your lie.

    Even though you all aren't against "treatment", practically none of you are for extensive treatments that bring huge improvements. None of the ND people you imply I misrepresent are for research into curative therapies. Their self-serving work and pursuits don't prove they care about LFA. Many ND adherents seldom acknowledge LFAs and seem to me to avoid acknowledging them. Those views are what I attribute to the ND adherents. What specific views were you denying that ND have, that me, Doherty, Mitchell, and Crosby, according to you, said ND had?

    "treating the incompatibility between the persons performance skill and the performance demands of the environment" I'm not sure what that entails. I wouldn't just consider the specific efforts as indicative of whether one is ND thinking or not, but the intentions that come along with them.

    I think if someone administers minimal therapies and adaptations, just due to there not currently being many better treatments, they aren't ND thinking. If someone administers those same things due to thinking that they're all that is needed, and thinking nothing better needs to be sought, or even thinking that nothing that is more effective is justified or wanted, then I think they would be ND thinking.

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  27. Billy

    I think you're in a lot of emotional pain and you need help even more than I do. I am in a ton of emotional pain as well. I think I may understand you. Billy, if you want to talk you can come to my blog at any time.

    I have the feeling I may know you better than you know yourself Billy.

    I don't know what will help you but I know hanging out with John Best Jr. and Jonathan Mitchell will not help you.

    Billy, are you having the problem of a lot of people throwing values into your face and that they tell you nothing?

    If the answer is yes, then we're in agreement and this is why I'm am for the movement that supports ND.

    If you're answer is yes this is one of the things I'm fighting for and that is Answers and not only for me but for you and for the rest of us.

    Right now I think this is what you need to do.

    1. Get that report from that psychologist

    2. Get to that place Clay Adams suggested.

    3. After your first day of going to that place get yourself an Egg Creme and then keep going to that place and fill out any paperwork they want you to fill out.

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  28. Cube, I don't expect anything to help me. But I'm glad that Best and Mitchell are around standing up for what they promote; that I'm not alone in speaking out. "are you having the problem of a lot of people throwing values into your face and that they tell you nothing?" I'm not sure what you mean there, but I feel I really am having that problem in some way.

    I'm still working on getting documentation signed by a psychiatrist I've seen so I can go to that place, which may entail having another appointment with him in a few weeks

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  29. "I don't expect anything to help me."

    That's the talk of someone who's given up.

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  30. "I think you're in a lot of emotional pain and you need help even more than I do."

    Cube, I think he's just another fucking emo-troll. I've told why on your blog.

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  31. I'm not a troll. I think that I, unlike the real emos, am justified in being emo.

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  32. "I'm not a troll. I think that I, unlike the real emos, am justified in being emo."

    I disagree on both points. All you do is complain and, when someone points you to something useful (as determine by shitloads of research) you pooh-pooh it and basically refuse to be helped. That's the sign of an attention whore. A troll. And someone who can't be arsed to do something that at least does some way towards sorting their own situation out. How the fuck does that 'I-give-up' kind of attitude justify you're being a bleeding emo-troll? Well? Why behave like a surrender-monkey if you're not one?

    Let's face it... you lied your fucking poxy little arse off to Clay, when he was trying to help you. You're full of shit, and until you demonstrate that you are doing something instead of fucking whinging all the fucking time like that tosspot Mitchell fucking does, you'll be as bad as he is.

    It's not autism stopping him from doing something useful: it's his fucking attitude... which you've taken on... lock, stock and fucking barrel!

    Waste of fucking time with you.

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  33. David, don't act like I don't have anything to complain about. I think it would be an outrage if certain things weren't complained about. What useful things would help me? What would all of that research do for me? How can't I have an "I give up" attitude when I have no options? I'm trying to do what I can to get access to a vocational service, but that's all I can expect.

    I consider myself justified in acting emo due to my indignation about the terrible things going on and my endurance of horrible conditions. How did I lie to Clay? I'm ok with the attitude I have.

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  34. "David, don't act like I don't have anything to complain about."

    I'm not saying you haven't anything to complain about. All you do is complain. Where's the action that needs to be done in order to stop it from being whinging?

    "I think it would be an outrage if certain things weren't complained about."

    Absolutely. But when it stops at complaining... it's whinging.

    "What useful things would help me? What would all of that research do for me?"

    I've explained a few before but you fucked it all off as irrelevant. Find out for yourself. That way, you might bloody appreciate what you find out better.

    "How can't I have an 'I give up' attitude when I have no options?"

    Prove you have no bloody options.

    "I'm trying to do what I can to get access to a vocational service, but that's all I can expect."

    I'm getting no proper fucking services, but I'm still doing my damndest to get what I should be getting BY LAW from the official bodies here.

    "I consider myself justified in acting emo due to my indignation about the terrible things going on and my endurance of horrible conditions."

    Well, good for fucking you! Fuck off and whinge your arse off then.

    That else get something fucking done!

    "How did I lie to Clay?"

    I'll let Clay expand on that.

    "I'm ok with the attitude I have."

    Which is why you won't get any further than being a fucking whingey-arse.

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  35. "Cube, I don't expect anything to help me."

    I'm trying to help you. I'm taking a huge step back on this.


    "But I'm glad that Best and Mitchell are around standing up for what they promote; that I'm not alone in speaking out. "are you having the problem of a lot of people throwing values into your face and that they tell you nothing?" I'm not sure what you mean there, but I feel I really am having that problem in some way."

    I'm not. Best promoted euthanasia. I don't think Mitchell is helping you at all. I'm going to have to explain what you mean. These are some of things the NT world say to you when you have tried to ask for help am I correct? These are some of these phrases.

    1. You're entitled to nothing
    2. Take responsibility
    3. Quit Blaming others
    4. Never give up
    etc. etc. etc.

    You probably feel that when they tell you these phrases and cliches that they're telling you nothing. Am I correct on this?

    You're probably asking what good do these phrases do you? I know what you want. You want actual answers and guess what so do I Billy. I'm trying to figure them out myself. That's why I have my blog. My blog helps me out to work through all this bullshit.

    I believe Billy a lot of your attitude and behavior has been carried over to here and it comes from these NTs feel good or non-feel good sayings without giving you any information at all. My question is what good are values when the NTs are saying that "you're not entitled to have your questions answered."

    This is why I'm with ND and I am fighting against this type of bullshit.

    Billy, I need you to take a huge step back as well. There are people here who are actually trying to help you. Clay has been trying to help. David I'm sure and Timelord I'm sure. I'm sure ABFH is trying to help as well. I'm attempting to help you as well. Billy I think by helping you I think I can help myself as well to get over the extreme emotional baggage I have. These people are attempting to answer your questions the best way they can as am I. I don't know the anwers myself but I'm trying to seek them out and personally I think we all need to join together and start demanding these answers. Maybe we need to start going to right wing rallies out in front street and demanding answers like this from them.

    The truth is these right wingers are as fake and phoney as they can be.

    "I'm still working on getting documentation signed by a psychiatrist I've seen so I can go to that place, which may entail having another appointment with him in a few weeks"

    This is good. Please do that Billy. I implore you.

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  36. "I'm trying to help you. I'm taking a huge step back on this."

    "Billy, I need you to take a huge step back as well. There are people here who are actually trying to help you. Clay has been trying to help. David I'm sure and Timelord I'm sure. I'm sure ABFH is trying to help as well. I'm attempting to help you as well."

    "Please do that Billy. I implore you."

    Waste of time... seriously... waste of time. He's not going to do much because he's not expecting to. I got fed up of trying to tell him that there was a lot he could do.

    Now... I say... 'Bollocks to him!'

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  37. verd verification: pollu

    change one letter and you get the finnish word for something that Mitchell really needs to get.

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  38. Cube...

    "Best promoted euthanasia."

    Not only that but he's supporting the murder of a prominent autistic blogger and self-advocate.

    "I don't think Mitchell is helping you at all."

    He's not helping autistics by bemoaning autism as he fucking does. And especially not himself... anybody who reads that fucking crap that he writes and happens to be in a position to offer a job to somebody... are they going to get a good idea of what autistic people can do?

    Because I don't fucking think so.


    Cresp...

    "But I'm glad that Best and Mitchell are around standing up for what they promote..."

    Why? Do you think that a person who promotes euthanasia and supports the solicitation of murder against an autistic person?

    Do you think he wouldn't want the same ends for you if you didn't fit his plans anymore?

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  39. David

    I think I know why it's been fruitless talking to billy. It has to deal with what's happenening in our country. Most people here are mostly concerned with one thing only and that is upward mobility. This is the only thing that people here consider as self-improvement.

    I think a lot of our values are based upon this and that is you do what you can to get to the top. Getting to the top is the only thing that matters. Money and possesions become a value of self-worth.

    I had this mentality for a long time but I'm slowly breaking free from it with Timelord's help.

    This is what's happeneing with Mitchell. Basically here, if you're not one of the best you're made to feel like shit.

    The problem here is that Americans have too high of a self esteem and this is why a lot of the problems occur here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-esteem

    David, please check out the Bullying, violence and murder section.

    David, our nation is becoming a nation of narcissists. I don't know what the solution to this is.

    David, the truth is is that Billy has been sold certain false things and principles.

    Let me tell you something that my fucking high school said. They said in point blank terms that you will not succeed without doing well on the SATs.

    David, before he can get any help at all these false concepts have to be broken for him and he has to be shown that there are other things to improve besides upward mobility.

    Miss Gonzo Galore probably understands that alot.

    I hate to be condemning my own country like this but I think this is true and somehow it needs to be corrected. This is why our economy sucks right now and we could have an economic collapse because of these bullshit type attitudes that upward mobility is the only way to go.

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  40. David, my conclusion is that Billy is basing his self worth on upward mobility which is a complete mistake.

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  41. anybody who reads that fucking crap that he writes and happens to be in a position to offer a job to somebody... are they going to get a good idea of what autistic people can do?Exactly. That is a key point. I don't really know what Lurker's problems are. I think Clay and David are more familiar with him. But if getting a job is one of them, Lurker is basically helping create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    And in the process, he's screwing the rest of us up as well.

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  42. David

    Here is Brit Think Vs Ameri Think. I showed this to Timelord. Billy is from the Ameri think culture and you're Scottish am I correct. Scotland is apart of Britain, is this not true? This means you have more of the Brit way of thinking and Billy has more of the Ameri way of thinking.

    "Well, I do know for a fact that it is a common misconception held in the United States.

    I actually bought a book titled Brit-Think, Ameri-Think that discusses the topic of teeth and the perception of them in both countries. I shall type an excerpt from it (it is quite lengthy):

    First Appearances:

    Ameri-Think:
    "If I've only one life to live," breathes a beauty in a famous American TV commercial, "let me live it as a blonde!" As has been noted, it goes against the Ameri-grain to concede that "we pass this way but once." Just in case, however, true Yanks are determined to make the most of it. Appearance is vital. Suggest that beauty is only skin-deep, or that character counts most, and natural skepticism overwhelms them. It's all very well to have a fabulous personality; but- if you want to reach for the stars (and every American does-you'll also need straight teeth. They're equally pragmatic about nature and its wondrousness. "If nature's blown it, we'll fix it" is the national cri de coeur that's launched a million cosmetic operations. It's clear that the quality of your life- and your enjoyment- are largely dependent on the way you look. There's little doubt that appearance affects popularity and financial success. "Just as God Made Me" is not always good enough. Look what He did with earwigs. (Telleriab2's Disclaimer: I, of course, am content with the way God created me. The point made in the passage was just humourous to me; I will not lie about that)

    ... Brit-Think:
    Nature usually gets it right the first time. Think carefully before pressing the override button. There's no such thing as perfection in this less-than-perfect world, and humans are no exception to the rule. What is success, anyway? How can you measure it, and what matter if you don't achieve it? Does British society respect you less if you're poor? (Yes.) Penalize you if you're stupid? (Of course.) Discriminate against you if you're unattractive? (Right on.)

    To seek perfection is to commit the sin of hubris. Brits are fatalists... "we all die anyway." Why suffer and sacrifice for an uncertain (and inevitably temporary) gain? It is enough just to be. Avoid tampering, or trying too hard, which is unbecoming. Anyway- the class system gives you a natural place in the scheme of things. If you like, it's yours for life.

    Yanks may believe that self-improvement= upward mobility= progress... but Brits hate the idea. For one thing, it suggests change. For another, it encourages a burst of personal initiative... your fate in your own hands, and so on. That idea makes Brits very tired. "Let it Be," sang Paul McCartney.

    That goes for things physical as well. Why spend good money to straighten little Jeremy's peculiar teeth? Pure indulgence, when all mortals are flawed. If you're going to splurge, invest in something sensible- like a new stereo system.

    The passage also goes to talk about the difference in sizes of mouths.

    Brit-Think:
    Brits have some of the most curious dental configurations in the world. Their mouths often appear too small for a normal number of teeth. Anglo-orifices are tiny and discreet, nestling unobtrusively between the nose and chin... (Mick Jagger's mouth is not orificially British).

    Brits keep stiff upper lips (Telleriab2 points out that this is another British stereotype) because they do not wish to call attention to their mouths by moving them. Large, wet, mobile apertures (like Mick's) strike them as obscene. Besides, they are hiding their teeth, since dental problems are woefully neglected. If there's one thing that frightens Brits more than the prospect of change, it's dentists.

    Ameri-Think:
    Ameri-mouths are more generous, and usually open. This accounts for the difference between British and American sandwiches. Brits are forced to nibble thin cucumber ones because their mouths don't open wide enough to accomodate American whoppers. Ameri-jaws will separate at an angle of 180 degrees, no problem. Bring on the pastrami.

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  43. "Even though you all aren't against "treatment", practically none of you are for extensive treatments that bring huge improvements."

    Total and complete bollocks. Many of us, those I've mentioned included, are for systemwide changes that incorporate mainstream and third sector services (many of us in the ND field work in exactly those services that deliver extensive therapies). I've even given you names before of people (including a top level academic and a person who helped set the UK governments official definition of autism) advocating for improvements to statutory primary/secondary care and LD/Autism services.

    You CANNOT get more extensive than advocating for services to deal with employment issues, sexual relationships, budgeting, transport, education, housing, benefits claims, dealing with the medical and health care professions, teaching of mainstream and alternative communication etc etc etc , thus the claim that few ND are not for extensive therapies is pure fabrication.

    "None of the ND people you imply I misrepresent are for research into curative therapies."

    If you think that's even a serious issue to take up with them, then you haven't even understood them AT ALL, much less misrepresented them.

    Do not confuse disagreement over the ethical and conditional reasoning behind treatments, and perceptions of the wider sociocultural context, as evidence that ND do not care about LFA's at all. Many of us have LFA friends or relatives, or work with LFA people.

    "I'm not sure what that entails."

    Why? The social model has been explained to you before, and you have claimed enough knowledge to have supposedly refuted it. Perhaps you might want to reconsider whether or not you have the prerequisite knowledge and understanding to join this conversation.

    "or even thinking that nothing that is more effective is justified or wanted, then I think they would be ND thinking."

    I'm not sure where you got the idea the ND people advocate minimally effective therapy. It seems to be something you just made up, as I've certianly seen no quote, comment or action to support this idea, yet I have certainly seen self-declared ND people (like Arnold and Millar) who definetly do and have advocated strongly against organisations who do the bare minimum.

    Efficacy of treatment is certainly part of basic pragmatic reasoning for any clinician or advocate, yet there is no evidence that members of the ND movement believe that we should do the absolute minimum - if such a thing was even possible to define.

    One again, you appear to have just made shit up out of thin air.

    Btw, this is now your third notice. Quote and reference or don't bother.

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  44. David, what action? I can't do anything. "Prove you have no bloody options." What more proof do you need other than that I'm mentally disabled? What do you expect me to do? In considering this, I think I need to know what goal you have in mind for me to achieve with a set of options. If you don't like my complaining, then quit thinking about it. I'm not going to stop until the oppression stops.

    Cube, I don't expect them to help me. I think my time has passed. I'm compelled to argue for the same views that Mitchell and the others do. About those 4 things you listed, oh yea I've heard them a lot when I told them my problems. It enrages me a lot. It kind of feels like they're telling me nothing when saying those, but it seems to me they're telling me something that in context makes no sense for me, as they seemed to have ignored the barriers keeping me from succeeding in any way. Sometimes it feels to me like they're trying to righteously justify their higher level of success by implying that laziness prevented my success, and that diligence ensured theirs, with no other factors involved.

    I wouldn't be surprised if my behavior here is from those ridiculous saying of NTs, as I think I'm getting some of the same core vibes from ND adherents, such as the acting as if there is enough opportunity for all to succeed under conditions in which there isn't, that people aren't entitled to a decent life, and the endless charade about "not giving up".

    I don't expect those guys to help me and don't like the idea of accepting their help in return for my silence on issues I talk about. I've already been considering for a long while, doing the thing Clay has talked to me about. Timelord is of no help to me. I don't see those like ABFH as anything other than my enemies. How can I be enthusiastic about all of this help offered to me by the same people who fundamentally are in favor of me having been born into the condition that has inevitably kept me chained down to the bottom of a hole? And what I argue about is above my importance. I can't ignore their views favoring deleterious conditions in other people, many of whom still have time left and who aren't alive yet, and their efforts to keep such conditions in place.

    I don't like a lot of the evasive and indirect answers that I receive from them. Those right wing rallies piss me off. I can't stand the backward, hypocritical, and inane people there. They sure are fake and phony.

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  45. David, I don't think Best really meant that when he supposedly did those things. I favor them because of the truth they tell, as they aren't against opportunity for all to succeed. I'm pleased that there is an opposition to ND on these forums, and I like some of the ways Best and the others conduct such opposition. Even if Best would want those ends for me, which there is no reason to think he would come to that, I think that would be better than the ends that ND people constantly want for me, which is for me to be their submissive unfortunate pet.

    Cube, I'm glad I'm still enlightened enough to favor upward mobility. What else is there to enjoy in life besides the various things that come from the various pursuits of upward mobility? I won't accept and be grateful for an existence of utter mediocrity. Nobody should have to. Since when does only our country care about upward mobility?

    Joseph, my problems are that I'm severely impaired in all areas of functioning, and can't learn much of anything, or reliably do anything correct. How am I committing a self fulfilling prophecy? I don't care if what I do offends and impedes you elites.

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  46. Anon, the therapies you favor aren't helpful enough. You all won't even accept ABA. I don't care about your fancy talk about systemwide changes and about government entities. I once heard about something called TEACHH, and it sounded like crap to me. Services are not enough. Don't lie by saying you can't get more extensive than services. Services don't eliminate impairments. Coping as an option, isn't the ultimate goal. Those aren't extensive therapies and are not what anti-ND people really claimed that you're against. Get real. The therapies you endorse won't lift them out of mental impairment substantially. The evidence that members of ND think only the absolute minimum should be done in efficacy of treatment: they claim that impairments are only problems due to society, they disapprove of research into strong treatments/cures, and only approve of the mild treatments now available.
    "I have very rarely came across a self-declared ND person who holds anything remotely like the views normally attributed to 'ND proponents' by people such as Crosby, Doherty and Cresp." I doubt you aren't aware that we favor strongly effective treatments and cures, and recognize that ND is against such things. There is no refuting that ND holds those views attributed to them. Stop trying to evade being exposed for having views that you know aren't palatible to many people, while continuing to hold such views.

    If those issues aren't serious issues to them, outside of their vilification of cure, then I stand by my attribution of views to ND. Their pseudo-intellectual sophistry over ethical treatments are no excuse for their lack of consideration of LFAs. Working with them doesn't disprove your lack of care for them. The social model is a bunch of nonsense to me and a trivialization of the terrible reality of mental impairment. I don't think it applies outside of a few minor instances. I know enough about your hogwash arguments to join this conversation.

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  47. "Dr Reality said...

    David Andrews,
    Let's cure all of the mental cases who major in psychology because they are trying figure out how to unscramble their own brains."

    Looks like Best(iality) to me...

    He loves monkey porn, doesn't he?

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  48. "Anon, the therapies you favor aren't helpful enough."

    Which is your opinion. Unsupported and unsubtantiated and made without any reference to the professional discussions around those therapies and just your opinion all the same.

    "You all won't even accept ABA."

    Some do. Another fabrication.

    "I don't care about your fancy talk about systemwide changes and about government entities."

    Then you are not interested in making life better for people with autism. You are only interested in chasing a illusionary 'cure'.

    "I once heard about something called TEACHH, and it sounded like crap to me."

    Shame it certainly doesn't sound crap to people who have actual effective knowledge on this subject. You (thankfully) are not one of these people.

    "Services are not enough. Don't lie by saying you can't get more extensive than services."

    Self-contradiction. Any 'cure' would have to be provided through a service. Anyways - you have not explained how assistance in all aspects of living is not extensive , given that niether 'cure' nor services can't possibly extend to cover areas that aren't part of the range of human occupation, then your accusation that I am lying about services is a clear sign of ignorance of what impairments and services actually are.

    "Services don't eliminate impairments."

    Holy fuck! You really think you know more than the combined knowledge base of professional organisations the world over! Here's a hint - services are there to provide restorative and adaptive interventions (amongst other things) that help people to overcome impairments. If they didn't, the evidence would very clearly be in by now. It isn't.

    "The therapies you endorse won't lift them out of mental impairment substantially."

    Really? Care to provide some references? No? Thought not.

    "There is no refuting that ND holds those views attributed to them."

    But they don't. Your perception of their views is based on the extremism of your own stance. You only think ND hold the views attributed because you cannot do anything other than attribute those views to anyone who does not expressly agree with you.

    "The social model is a bunch of nonsense to me"

    Great for you. Now pony up some references for why anyone else should think the same or shut up.

    "I don't think it applies outside of a few minor instances."

    Utter crap, it does - by the definition of being a model of disability - apply to ALL cases were traits are delineated into traits and impairments - that is the very process that it models! The fact that you do not recognise this strongly indicates that you actually do not understand it at all.

    You are pretty clearly talking absolute tosh about everything, yet again. Your constant self-referencing nay-saying about everything that doesn't agree with you is tiring. You blithely assume that your mere opinion on something should be taken as gospel, above and beyond those of the experienced people who are having the actual real world discussions about these models and therapies.

    "I don't think so" doesn't cut it in the big boy world.

    BTW that was your third opportunity to expose me as a liar. You yet again failed to do so.

    Kindly fuck off and don't reply to me again.

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  49. "Cube, I don't expect them to help me. I think my time has passed. I'm compelled to argue for the same views that Mitchell and the others do. About those 4 things you listed, oh yea I've heard them a lot when I told them my problems. It enrages me a lot. It kind of feels like they're telling me nothing when saying those, but it seems to me they're telling me something that in context makes no sense for me, as they seemed to have ignored the barriers keeping me from succeeding in any way. Sometimes it feels to me like they're trying to righteously justify their higher level of success by implying that laziness prevented my success, and that diligence ensured theirs, with no other factors involved. "

    Billy, these very reasons you gave are the reason I joined the movement that is based on ND. The truth is is the NTs are taking these values to absolutes.

    You're taking a value called Prudence to an absolute right now. As Clay said you shouldn't quit anything before you try.

    This is why I created my blog. I concluded that the only way to get people like us accepted is that we need to start challenging values NTs hold dear. This is what I am doing with my blog.

    Billy, you should be on our side for these very same reasons. Why don't you until you get your psychological report help me to challenge some of these values and afterwards continue to help me challenge some of these values. Billy read over some of my stuff.

    Maybe we can come up with some things to say when they say these things and make them eat their own words.

    "I wouldn't be surprised if my behavior here is from those ridiculous saying of NTs, as I think I'm getting some of the same core vibes from ND adherents, such as the acting as if there is enough opportunity for all to succeed under conditions in which there isn't, that people aren't entitled to a decent life, and the endless charade about "not giving up".

    No the NDs are not saying the same thing. People here are trying to help you. The truth is is that you're on constant defense status mode. I understand.

    "I don't expect those guys to help me and don't like the idea of accepting their help in return for my silence on issues I talk about. I've already been considering for a long while, doing the thing Clay has talked to me about. Timelord is of no help to me. I don't see those like ABFH as anything other than my enemies. How can I be enthusiastic about all of this help offered to me by the same people who fundamentally are in favor of me having been born into the condition that has inevitably kept me chained down to the bottom of a hole? And what I argue about is above my importance. I can't ignore their views favoring deleterious conditions in other people, many of whom still have time left and who aren't alive yet, and their efforts to keep such conditions in place. "

    No they're not your enemies. They're actually trying to obtain the answers like you are. Timelord has been told the same bullshit as well. They're trying to get help for people like you and I and I am with them. In fact, they're more your friends then Best or Mitchell.

    "I don't like a lot of the evasive and indirect answers that I receive from them."

    I don't see any NDs giving any evasive answers. In fact, the answers from them are the most clear I have ever received in my 30years on this planet.

    "Those right wing rallies piss me off. I can't stand the backward, hypocritical, and inane people there. They sure are fake and phony.

    We are definetly in agreement here. I cannot stand any of that bullshit either and this is why I'm with ND. I am trying to fight shit like the backward, hypocritical, innane, fake, and phony people they are. This is one of the things I'm doing on my blog.

    I have asked a ton of questions and have yet to receive one answer from any of them from places like www.townhall.com.

    Billy, your buddy best is a right winger himself.

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  50. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Billy 'Tosspot' Cresp is a timewaster.

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  51. "Cube, I'm glad I'm still enlightened enough to favor upward mobility. What else is there to enjoy in life besides the various things that come from the various pursuits of upward mobility? I won't accept and be grateful for an existence of utter mediocrity. Nobody should have to. Since when does only our country care about upward mobility?"

    This is another of your main problems right here. Accumulating possesions and wealth should never be the number one priority. This is called hubris and greed. This is why our country is failing Billy. There are other things you can improve like your character, your critical thinking skills and other things. You can try to improve your reading skills too. Try going to the library. Improve your knowledge.

    Another thing is if you see a homeless person buy him or her a sandwich or something. Maybe give them some crackers. Be charitable with whatever you do have.

    Billy, you are learning wrong values which are evil and corrupt to the core.

    Billy, what is happenening is you're trying to follow the herd and out beat the heard. Don't do that bullshit.

    Clay Adams is an older gentleman and comes from a time before all of this narcisstic bullshit ever took root in this country. You need to listen to him, Timelord ABFH, and me. Clay Adams knows what he is talking about as does timelord. Do not try to be something you're not. I am 5 years older than you and I am from the same generation as you and I know how our generation thinks. The truth is a lot of them are narcisstic and only care about themselves. Please don't follow in their footsteps.

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  52. Billy as I said, you need to take a step back and metaphorically put away your light saber.

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  53. Billy the truth is America and the rest of the world is becoming static, closed and an isolated system and is achieving the 2nd law of theromodynamics. We are achieving maximum value of equilibrium and increasing in entrophy.

    Our political, economic and social systems are dying. We need to make these systems open and dynamic.

    I cannot do this alone. Will you read all of my entries on my blog and please consider everything I have said to you?

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  54. Anon, your endorsed therapies aren't proven to help significantly and to a great extent. It's not a fabrication. I've seen very few of the ND endorse ABA, and have seen vicious portrayals of it. Stop prevaricating.

    "Then you are not interested in making life better for people with autism. You are only interested in chasing a illusionary 'cure'." You should realize that your self-serving academic and career based pursuits aren't dramatically benefiting the majority of autistics. I wish you weren't only interested in aggrandizing the HFA. There won't be a cure unless someone looks for it.

    I don't need to know all about TEACCH to know it's not generally helpful. It seems shady to me through its descriptions, and I can only wonder if the details make it beneficial at all. "Self-contradiction. Any 'cure' would have to be provided through a service" Resorting to out of context semantics. Filthy desperate liar.

    Even if assistance is extensive, they're still only services. They still are based on dependence resulting from remaining impairment. "niether 'cure' nor services can't possibly extend to cover areas that aren't part of the range of human occupation" Nobody is demanding that, so why are you bringing up such absurdities? When I'm saying extensive, I mean very substantial elimination of impairment. Adaptations and overcoming of impairment isn't the same as elimination of impairment. Many things in society can't be adapted to prevent impairments from being problematic.

    I don't need to provide any references to show that the therapies don't significantly eliminate impairments, since you only favor therapies that accommodate or adapt to impairments, but don't eliminate them, as your adherence to the social model of disability makes you against that elimination. If those therapies do eliminate impairments, why do you endorse them, considering you only want to accommodate impairments?

    If those therapies are so effective, why have virtually none of the pro-cure advocates, who very likely have perused materials about various therapies, accepted that those existing therapies are satisfactory? Why would they put so much energy into looking for a cure if they thought minor therapies were enough to remove the mental disability? Nobody is ignoring some dramatic success of current therapies just due them wanting cure.

    The social model won't enable those mentally disabled to do all basic tasks, as impairments inevitably preclude the doing of many tasks. I don't need to cite anything other than common sense. How can accommodations devised due to the social model make all basic tasks possible despite any mental impairment? I heard about the social model's origination in physical disability advocacy, and I wish nobody had pretended it applied to anything else.

    You have no credibility as you won't even acknowledge your own views in their direct form. I'm not someone with some lone opinion, and I know a lot would agree with me. My opinion shouldn't be marginalized due to your high and mighty attitude. I don't care how much experience and connections you have, if your actual intentions aren't helpful and if what you have done hasn't produced great results. I think about how you and others feel so smug and important in your discussions about models, therapies, and ideological bases about society and how it pertains to the way things are. "real world discussions"? I'd like to know how your actual favored actions would prepare mentally disabled people for the real world where accommodations aren't practical or realistic, where flexibility and self-reliance are indispensable. I wish you were interested in producing big boys instead of mama's boys.

    Anyone who knows what I think, what you ND think, and that you are aware of those two things, wouldn't have a reason to not simply conclude you're a liar for saying ND doesn't have the views I attribute to them. You couldn't cover for ND with your captious arguments and irrelevant answers.

    "Kindly fuck off and don't reply to me again." Well, you shouldn't have started an argument like that with me by opening your fucking little mouth about me.

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  56. Cube... seriously, can you not tell from his posts that Cresp doesn't even want to be helped?

    You're wasting your time with him.

    Seriously. He'll sap you dry emotionally and still come out with the unsubstantiated arse-paste that he's always done.

    Let the fucking idiot rot in that hell of his own making. He's not worth our attention... which he's getting in plenty when people try to help him.

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  57. Cube, that seems like a peculiar reason to join ND to me. I haven't quit before I tried. I've tried a lot of things many times only to fail. I've tried things I even thought would be easy and failed. I'm not completely quitting. I just hope for some vocational program to get me a job.

    I wouldn't mind challenging some of those values. I've seen some of your interesting stuff. I don't know how all of that leads to validating ND. I can't ignore that I see ND embracing and perpetuating some of the same core values that NTs use to stabilize and justify their own status quo.

    How are any ND people trying to substantially help me? I don't expect them to as there isn't a lot that can be done for me at this point. What answers are they trying to obtain? What they consider help isn't a lot of help to me. I sense discord between me and them because of their acceptance and support of the unequal distribution of mental ability. Since I suffer due to that reality, I am against their efforts to support that reality and I feel victimized by those efforts.

    I like knowing that those like Best and Mitchell support the truth and want to make things better. I particularly think I'm getting evasive answers from ND people when trying to get them to admit things they don't want to admit, and to recognize that their views are harsh and unjust.

    I've tried to argue with right wingers in chat rooms sometimes to mostly only get nowhere with them and their nonsense. I wouldn't consider Best a right winger of the type I see today.

    I'm not sure how much of one he can be with his antagonism towards pharmaceutical companies and the previous conservative government that favored them, his thinking that curative treatments should be available regardless of a parent's capacity to pay, and his loose attitudes about sex. Doesn't seem like the kind of right winger that would bother me much. Many of the right wingers that I can't stand are the lunatic fascist ones I see frequently nowadays.

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  58. Cube, I wouldn't call it the number one priority, but I consider it way up there, and don't think that possessions alone can ensure happiness or success. I don't consider that greed though. I think all should get to have lots of possessions and don't see huge disparities in wealth as justified as I think most people are as hardworking as each other. I think it's unjust for anyone to have to go without basic necessities. I think it's greed when one wants to accumulate great things to the detriment of other people, while others have a lot less possessions.

    I think our country is failing because of this outdated, oppressive, and even corrupted economic system that is around, and because of the backward social tendencies that seem to go hand in hand with it and won't go away. I don't think the unequitable conditions and rules that allow some privileged people to gain lots more wealth are justified. I'm displeased that the upward mobiliity that this country was supposed to have, and which caused people to more vigorously expect and pursue upward mobility, doesn't truly exist a lot in this country.

    I want the dominance of the herd to be broken once and for all, so competition is no longer needed to be comfortable. What is it that I'm not that I'm trying to be? I'm disappointed in my generation and in the one or two generations preceding mine. I can only restrain myself to stepping back for small amounts of time, where I try to get my mind off of these things temporarily. I don't see how I can improve my reading skills or ability to accumulate knowledge.

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  59. Billy, just keep reading my blog. It's how I'm trying to work out answers. I'm putting values into mathematical terms. The main point is that I do not deal in absolutes in anything whether they are values or movements. Once you deal in absolutes then your values become contradictory and inconsistent.

    David, I don't mean to offend you or anyone but all I was trying to do was help Billy because I can see him heading down the path I went down and I don't want to dicuss that here.

    I'm trying to prove his core premises as flawed and that our good values are becoming detrimential and that upward mobility is not good like most people say it is.

    All the values I discuss our good values but taken to extremes and held as absolute like most of the American people have done is not good at all.

    In addition, Both Billy and David I'm trying to make sure our movement and ND itself does not take anything as absolute.

    The thing is all human beings on this planet all have their preconceptions and biases and I do as well. I am trying to let them all go. Everyone, both ASD and NT needs to let them all go as well.

    In fact, Billy I did point out one issue that does need to be rectified and we have partially already and that is no criminal activity or behavior should be acceptable in our movement and should be allowed in the idea of ND.

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  60. "I think our country is failing because of this outdated, oppressive, and even corrupted economic system that is around, and because of the backward social tendencies that seem to go hand in hand with it and won't go away. I don't think the unequitable conditions and rules that allow some privileged people to gain lots more wealth are justified. I'm displeased that the upward mobiliity that this country was supposed to have, and which caused people to more vigorously expect and pursue upward mobility, doesn't truly exist a lot in this country. "

    Billy, then you need to fight this flawed system which I am trying to do. The truth is is that our constitution has been flawed since its inception.

    Timelord and I agree with you on this.

    The truth is Our health care system is a fucking joke as Timelord can attest to.

    "I think it's greed when one wants to accumulate great things to the detriment of other people, while others have a lot less possessions. "

    We're in agreement here. You do have the right to a decent life. Timelord agrees with this too. Even he posted this on his website.

    In fact our declaration of independence says we have the right to life. The truth is the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness all have been given equal weight in this country when they should not have been.

    Billy, life comes before liberty and liberty comes before property. Life comes before property. Everything you say I agree with and John Locke agrees with too.

    This country has forgotten the other two principles which are life and pursuit of happiness. This country is so fucking caught up in liberty, liberty, liberty.

    Billy, Everything you're fighting for and fighting against ND is for and against.

    Billy I'm just taking it a step further.

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  61. Cube, I'll keep reading your blog. I don't see what there is in common between me and ND.

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  62. I want the dominance of the herd to be broken once and for all, so competition is no longer needed to be comfortable.I see. You want a utopia, Lurker; one where everyone is equally affluent, and equally capable too.

    Cuba might the closest to what you want, but people are not exactly affluent there. I hear it's a beautiful country, though.

    You might assume I say these things because I'm advantaged, but you'd be surprised.

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  63. Joseph, I would love such utopias, and don't think they're impossible. I don't think the alternatives to that are appealing or satisfactory.

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  66. Has nobody noticed that Crispy-sheet Cresp only comes back at people with the exact opposite of what people say to him? No matter how well researched the point is that you make, he only comes back with a very poorly understood and non-researched response that is designed to contradict your original point... things he cannot even find a fucking reference for?

    Odd, that, innit? For someone who is trying to do something, I mean...

    He is trying to do something... waste everybody's fucking time. Nothing else.

    I think it's time he was dealt with as a serious time-waster.

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  67. Lurker - you make several errors in your previous post to me.

    First, I am most definetly in favour of restorative and/or curative services. It's my profession, my career, my interest and my job to select the most clinically indicated approach to help the person attain or retain the most function, within the relevent ethical and paragmatic frameworks.

    To say otherwise is a pure fabrication.

    Secondly, there will always be people (even amongst more common conditions that can be cured) who will view current services as inadequate. That there are pro-cure autistics who think this (as do many, many ND's - so your point is still utter porrly informed bollocks) is no surprise, nor is it meaningful as a counterpoint to those services.

    The issue is whether or not such people can offer cogent, rational criticisms that can be used to inform development of those services. Ill-informed nay-saying that does nothing more than screech for a poorly defined 'cure' helps no-one.

    "Resorting to out of context semantics. Filthy desperate liar" re:curative services.

    Sorry, but any curative intervention will have to be delivered through a service. This is clear to anyone.

    Thirdly, I am a person with an ASD who has helped other people with ASD to manage their finances, find (and keep) work, to develop understanding of relationships and communication etc etc etc.

    You are some guy in your moms attic somewhere. I think any rational observer will know who has done more for autistic people.

    Fourth, the is NOTHING about the social model that advocates for the never-no way-no how- non-elimination of impairments. It is a descriptive model of the process by which performance skills become impairments by being incompatible with the performance
    demands of the environment.

    "Anyone who knows what I think, what you ND think, and that you are aware of those two things, wouldn't have a reason to not simply conclude you're a liar for saying ND doesn't have the views I attribute to them."

    But ND people DON'T have the views you attribute to them, as is obvious from the chosen careers, fields of study, advocacy work and actual stated and implied beliefs, both online and offline. I and others have repeatedly asked you for quote and you have repeatedly failed to provide a smidgeon of evidence. You even changed arguement in this thread - your accusation of no support for ABA magically changed as soon as I pointed out it was wrong.

    You are making the mistake of believing that anyone not with you is against you, as I have warned you about before. You thus accuse people of not holding the same beliefs and intentions that you do, just because you do not share the same view of how those intentions should be realised.

    I'm not even sure what you think this discussion is about anymore. You seem to be willing to make any unsubstantiated, unreferenced shit up just to somehow, in someway, score some sort of point, just because some guy hurt your ickle-wickle ego.

    Not only due you show extreme ignorance of the actual state of debate about autism, autism services and autism interventions, but you also show that you have never made a competant attempt to even understand the arguement.

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  68. "I don't expect them to as there isn't a lot that can be done for me at this point"

    You are fully capable of carrying on multi-post, multi-point simultanious discussions on various related points to multiple people.

    That indicates a higher level of function in several domains than is found in many many of the people with autism that the autism services I know of deal with.

    The idea that you are too far gone to be helped is utter fucking bullshit as far as I'm concerned. You've demonstrated far too much ability to be a lost cause.

    Someone has been feeding you bullshit about autism, and what people with autism are capable of. I would suggest your problems with employment stem from you being a highly stuck up your arse unpleasant dick, more than they do from autism.

    My advice to you is to spend less time moaning about shit you don't understand and more on actually doing something about your life.

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  69. "I can't ignore that I see ND embracing and perpetuating some of the same core values that NTs use to stabilize and justify their own status quo."

    And we can't ignore that your calls for a cure are made under the same value system that intrinsically devalues people with autism and perpetuates the uneven distribution of subjective value.

    "What they consider help isn't a lot of help to me."

    The ONLY way for this to be true is for you to have too much function for treatment to have an impact upon you. The vocational service you are hoping for will likely have multiple employers who are willing to accomodate autism in the workplace, and the most successful work placement will likely be the ones most willing to accomodate. In essence, ND-thinking and acceptance of autism will be tangibly more effective alongside a pure skills-based treatment than a exclusively skills-based treatment.

    "I sense discord between me and them because of their acceptance and support of the unequal distribution of mental ability."

    Except the ND movement does NOT support the unequal distribution of mental ability, but actively seeks to change the systems by which ability is demanded, valued and thusly distributed.

    You're basically claiming that the ND movement supports the very system they openily question and want to change extensively.

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  70. Anon, I have no reason or want to talk about or criticize your career and what you do in it through what services you provide, no matter how small in effect they are. I know that some help is preferable to none, and know that I haven't done anything near as much as you. That is none of my business.

    However when you are covering for ND adherents who imply that current therapies/services are enough and are as great as a cure, alongside their opposition to cure, I'm compelled to point out the limitations of services compared to a cure. I don't want anyone to be misled by those claims of ND.

    When I was talking about services, I was referring to the various non-curative coping interventions that are mildly helpful, not to all things that can be construed as a service.

    Even though the social model itself doesn't claim to be against elimination of impairments, the ND individuals I witness who support that model, seem to me to be very against that elimination. I've heard them imply that the push for a cure would be demeaning, that a cure is even impossible, that cure research shouldn't be funded as they claim it wastes money that could be spend on making services available now. I know about Ari Ne'eman's attempt to influence research funding in the IACC by suggesting the research money not be used to look for cures.

    I've sometimes seen them claim disability itself is diversity. I've sometimes heard them talk as if independence isn't important. I doubt they don't know that included in the meaning of cure by most who talk about cure, is the elimination of impairments. Since they obviously are anti-cure, I wonder what else it is about cure aside from that elimination that they are against. Even if there is something else about cure that they don't like, I wonder why after all of this time, they haven't pointed it out and clarified it to the pro-cure people they continue to vilify, and then try to come to an understanding with them, as they supposedly aren't against the elimination of impairment part of cure.

    I'm not trying to be intolerant of any disagreement with me. I have tried to reason with ND people before. I've sorta came across one or two who aren't as fundamentally threatening as I thought, but over time as I listened to the other NDs, I've only seen their in my opinion, extreme backward and oppressive views become clearer and intense.

    These are not minor disagreements. The debates stirred up by ND aren't about the relative efficacy of different treatments or how to implement them. This isn't a debate over what way a common goal can be realized. I think it could seem like that when ND seems to claim that any basic task can be possible with accommodations for any autistic. I think for many, that the common goal of ensuring functioning is considered absent when ND unrealistically and impractically claims that accommodations are the solution and stands against the only real solution which is cure, which leads many to think that ND do not have the goal of ensuring functioning in common.

    I'm not the only one who senses this threat from them and just reading their blogs and hearing about the activities they have done will show what they think and why anyone who favors cure should not want the ND followers to get their way. I'm pleased that you aren't against cure, but I can't ignore what ND is trying to do.

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  71. Anon, don't overestimate my capabilities. There are so many impairments I have that are so intense that it's difficult to describe my overall condition. Carrying on discussions even on here is hard for me. I spend a lot of time and effort trying to come up with posts. Discussions are especially hard for me when they involve many individuals, like in chat rooms in which discussions transpire kind of fast.

    I consider myself impossible to be helped as I'm 25, not growing anymore, and doubt a cure will be found anytime soon, for whatever condition I have, a condition that I wonder if it even has a name. I can't get employed as I'm extremely incompetent and don't know how to communicate with people. I've floundered in the even simple jobs that I briefly had. I can't do anything with myself. There's a lot I'd like to do, that I still daydream about, but there's nothing out there for me. All I do is mess up when I try to do things.

    I'd like to know where all the other assholes are who are sitting at home because their unpleasant ways precluded them from employment. Oh, I don't know of any of those, but I know lots of shit eating bastards have jobs and even great ones. I then wonder if I should still think that all of my problems are due to my lack of decency as a person. How have I been lied to about autism, and about their capabilities, considering what you just said about the levels of function in many with autism that are dealt with by autism services?

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  72. Anon, I'm not impressed by your slanderous propaganda about "devaluing" people with autism. I wonder how that service will come up with a job that is simple enough for me where the low value of my work capacity won't be a problem. "In essence, ND-thinking and acceptance of autism will be tangibly more effective alongside a pure skills-based treatment than a exclusively skills-based treatment" I'm not sure what you mean.

    They don't want to change the systems by which ability is demanded, but want to pretend that one can be content with lacking competence if society expresses no demand of those capabilities from those who don't have them. Aside from the impracticality of that, the high-functioning ND pushers, with their vast abilities, always indulge in doing the same tasks that are demanded, and reap the benefits that come from doing those tasks and which correspond to the impetus behind the demand for the specific abilities that make those tasks possible, while none of the other ND pushers even bat an eye.

    There is no way they are going to remove value from abilities to make self-esteem and satisfaction capability neutral. I won't dignify that lunatic talk. I think the ND enjoy their vast abilities way too much to be committed to devaluing ability. I also think it's ironic that they use their abilities to talk clearly and eloquently, and to participate and listen in conferences, to promote ND, to keep the LFA down and deprived of abilities.

    Not to mention that they portray the amazing abilities that sometimes come with autism as a reason not to look for cure, including their repudiation of functioning labels, and their only calling themselves autistic when some of them are likely aspies, when showing their high-functioning, hardly impaired selves, to those they try to influence about ND. I wonder what perception about the capabilities of autistics will be formed by the uninformed who listen to those ND advocates.

    None of their pseudo-intellectual arguments will disprove that they have fundamental efforts to keep the disparities of ability in place, or that they argue that those disparities aren't a problem. Capabilities aren't subjective.

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  73. whinge, whinge, whinge, whinge...

    Cresp... FUCK OFF!

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  74. David, what is it that you do around here that is so productive and important?

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  75. "criticize your career and what you do in it through what services you provide"

    Except you have already done this several times over in this thread up to, and including, implying that my career is self serving and selfish.

    Sorry, but you don't get away with saying that you would never try to do something when you have expressly done exactly that.

    I don't know where you get the idea that the ND movement does not wish to discuss the efficacy of treamtments. Several , including Millar and Arnold are involved in exactly that, and that's not including those of us that do it as part of our jobs.

    "I consider myself impossible to be helped as I'm 25, not growing anymore,"

    Ha! You're only 25, over a decade younger than many people with autism that I know who have been successfully found jobs.

    "for whatever condition I have, a condition that I wonder if it even has a name."

    ?!?!? I was under the impression that you were diagnosed autistic. If you're wondering, you might like to look up borderline personality disorder, your binary world view and constant switching from being nicey-nice to a raging sweary bastard is classically indicative.

    "I can't get employed.........."

    Nonsense. You demonstrate more function across more domains than many autistic people, including those that can get jobs. I'm not about to assume global functioning based on a few skills - that's for anti-ND people like yourself to assume lack of dysfunction in people like Arnold and Andrews just because they show verbal function.

    "I'm not sure what you mean. " re:skills based training.

    Basically, the best job for you will be one that you can do, and it doesn't matter what you can't do.

    RE: ND and services:

    I'm sorry, but I and others here have directly named or refered to, a large number of pro-ND people, from local advocates to high level academics and directors of national charities, that are very interested in developing and delivering the autism services and treatments that are currently available.

    The ND movement most certainly is not happy with the current state of services, so your accusation that they are is complete fabrication, as are most of your other claims about ND.

    It's odd that you 'don't care' about such people, and then claim that such people don't exist.

    Again, your perception of ND is in direct contradiction to easily observable reality. It is your fault, not anyone elses, that you do not have enough experience of that reality.

    ", the ND individuals I witness who support that model, seem to me to be very against that elimination"

    Such individuals would be tangibly non-ND, if they did not support elimination of disparity. Anyone happy with the current state of disparity would be non-ND almost by basic definition of ND. Even your example contained a person who was very much explicitly pro-intervention.

    You still do not get that the debate is over how to achieve the elimination of disparity. Your fabrication that the ND movement is happy with it, simply because they do not agree that your poorly-defined 'cure' is either practicable, acheivable or ethical ,is NOT a sign that they are for the status quo, especially given that many have made public statements to the contrary in addition to the nature of thier work.

    Again "I don't think it's good enough" is NOT a sufficient arguement, and the self-satisfying nature of the arguements that you do make would see you thrown out of any serious organisation or conference.

    "David, what is it that you do around here that is so productive and important?"

    HAHAHA! The irony that YOU would ask David Andrews (a internationally known academic and autism commentator) what he contributes here is delicious, and shows that you have a painful lack of insight into just how you are seen around here.

    I've never seen you (or mitchell, doherty, best or crosby) referenced by anyone, anywhere, except in exasperation. David, on the other hand, has had his work professionally referenced to me in two different contexts (LD, autism) on three seperate occasions, by three seperate organisation which are spread amongst the UK and Ireland, where he doesn't even live anymore.

    You are pretty much utterly clueless.

    Sorry, but this is like shooting fish in a barrel. Consider me out.

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  76. I consider myself impossible to be helped as I'm 25, not growing anymore,

    You're a baby, Lurker. When I was 25 I was living with my parents. I'm very different to who I was at 25 and I have many skills I didn't have at 25.

    I can't get employed as I'm extremely incompetent and don't know how to communicate with people. I've floundered in the even simple jobs that I briefly had. I can't do anything with myself. There's a lot I'd like to do, that I still daydream about, but there's nothing out there for me. All I do is mess up when I try to do things.

    I don't think it's possible for you to succeed at any job with that sort of self-assessment. It can't be done. I accept you might have impairments that make work inherently difficult, but your attitude can't possibly be helping.

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  77. Anon, I only consider your career self-serving if your intentions are to keep possibilities limited to what help you can bring. I hope you genuinely aren't anti-cure. Of course those in the ND movement talk about efficacy of treatments sometimes, but the arguments about ND itself aren't fundamentally about the efficacy of treatments. The debates about ND go beyond the efficacy of one treatment or another.

    What are your credentials to diagnose me with anything? I detest the idea of pathologizing the adherence to a firm set of values and standing up for a real cause while having the determination to go against a tendency that is flawed and harmful, even though the tendency is highly validated by a herd due to the tendency's "feel-good" basis. I guess doing those things that I do is unacceptable in this modern paradigm. Having a single mindset and mood constantly isn't normal. I wonder what professional I should see to rid me of my switching or whatever, so I can be a static zombie adhering to group think.

    I truly haven't been employed despite my efforts. I couldn't get it done despite my efforts. My incompetence at work is proven by my mess ups at jobs that were not complicated. You haven't listened to my impairments, and I think you're way overestimating my functioning compared to autistics. Doing things on here is a lot easier for me but still is difficult for me. You're not about to assume? You just did.

    Lack of dysfunction in guys like Andrews is proven by the fact that he has accomplished VARIOUS tasks. I have realized he may have had some slight impairments when he told me and I don't deny that. I am not assuming only due to his verbal function. I know he has a profession that requires speech skills, lots of verbal skills, a lot of intelligence, ability to interact with people, and to manage a lot of tasks to meet the responsibilities of such a job.

    I'm not just assessing his capabilities directly. I start by considering what tasks have been done. I then consider that those tasks require certain skills and those skills require certain capabilities. I consider the functioning level of other ND elites through this same process. I DO NOT just consider that they can talk through exchanges on a blog post as you just have. You can't say I'm very functional based on what I have done on these posts alone. You know I'm having trouble getting a job. You haven't heard about what other tasks I can or can't do.

    On the other hand, I have listened to ND aspies just talking nonchalantly about things, who in the process, many times disclosed their academic achievements, that they do speak well, do communicate with people, do drive, do get jobs, and do reside independently at home. None of these tasks have been affirmed to have been done by me. Affirming the task of blog post commenting isn't enough.

    "but I and others here have directly named or refered to, a large number of pro-ND people, from local advocates to high level academics and directors of national charities, that are very interested in developing and delivering the autism services and treatments that are currently available." This was not being contended by me. "The ND movement most certainly is not happy with the current state of services, so your accusation that they are is complete fabrication" I made no such accusation. I was saying that they want only services/therapies with the current level of efficacy and that they only want services for coping to be available. I didn't say they were satisfied with all of the services out there and their implementation and availability. You can't deny my credibility with such strawmen.

    "It's odd that you 'don't care' about such people, and then claim that such people don't exist." What do you mean? Hardly anything of what ND says is reconcilable with reality. If you really think such individuals who are against that elimination are not ND, then you should get a wake up call as to what the real intentions of the ND advocates are. If ND advocates truly want the disparities eliminated, they should have made that clear by now. What example are you referring to? It depends on what one means when they say "intervention". Not all interventions will increase aptitude. I won't assume they are ok with cure when faced by that ambiguity. And I'm not sure what disparity you are referring to.

    I'm not sure what you mean that I think ND is happy with. But they aren't against the disparity in ability among individuals. I have no reason to think they are against disparity in ability and want it eliminated, if they baselessly say such elimination is impossible and that they can't even agree that it is ethical. There is no denying that the disparity in ability is the status quo. They won't even produce a clear definition of cure.

    Can you explain to me the helpfulness of what he does here besides kissing his ass. I don't think every step of ground he walks on is immaculate just because he has a complex career and a lot of prominence. "David, on the other hand, has had his work professionally referenced to me in two different contexts (LD, autism) on three seperate occasions, by three seperate organisation" That doesn't answer my question. I want to know what he contributes specifically by posting on these forums.

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  78. Joseph, don't talk to me like I'm a child. I've been listening to that stuff for long enough. I'm old enough to have children. I'm not getting any younger and I'm perceiving time as passing by faster as time goes on. Don't deceive me by telling me that you learned things since you were 25.

    You weren't mentally incompetent at 25. Basic skills aren't supposed to come after 25, but much earlier. There's a lot of things I'd love to do that a 25 year old and those slightly younger do. Don't pretend for a second that I didn't have a lot of precious years ruined. Self-assessments didn't produce my failures. I'm not looking for help from my attitude.

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  79. "David, what is it that you do around here that is so productive and important?"

    Did I say I actually DO say anything important?

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  80. "I'm not just assessing his capabilities directly."

    You're not even assessing them directly.

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  81. David, I know you didn't say that. I think if you aren't doing anything important here, that neither are your companions on here doing so either. If you're not doing anything important on here, I'd like to know how I'm wasting anyone's time when they're on here.

    I know that you have a complex career and have done a lot of things in relation to your career. Unless you're lying about that, which isn't probable, then there's no way I couldn't conclude that you do have a large set of capabilities that your job requires.

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  82. Maybe I should do a long one here:


    "I consider myself impossible to be helped as I'm 25, not growing anymore, ..."

    Whinge, whinge, whinge...

    Firstly, 25 is no fucking age to get started on anything... at least, by that I mean that it's still early enough to start defining a career for yourself. If you want one, but I get the impression that you can't be arsed.

    Secondly, after a shitty time at school, I was not in a frame of mind for going to university for more of the same shit that I had at school. However, I did go off to university at 26; undiagnosed issues meant that I struggled with them instead of having the support that was available and was much needed... but it wasn't the dyslexia or the dyspraxia or the autism that were the problems... it was the lack of appropriate support... and that was cause by the lack of an appropriate diagnosis. Since then, I found a way of doing things that suited me, and my effort was finally reqarded with some decent success. Still been a long road, but I got here... and not by fucking whinging. I put in the effort, and I got somewhere. And ended up being part of a small movement that has been working to improve the quality of life for autistics in Finland. I'm not on a huge income by any fucking means; but - as Anonymous points out - I'm known. And I've made some impact on things where I am.

    What have you done with this whinging approach, except piss people off and make yourself look like a fucking pussy?

    "I can't get employed as I'm extremely incompetent and don't know how to communicate with people. I've floundered in the even simple jobs that I briefly had. I can't do anything with myself. There's a lot I'd like to do, that I still daydream about, but there's nothing out there for me. All I do is mess up when I try to do things."

    Ever looked into the REAL reasons why this happens? Seems you're not in control of your life because you can't be arsed to take that. Everything is down to that. Can you be arsed to take some fucking control of your life? If not, then fuck off. Take your 'woe-is-me' shit elsewhere. We're basically all fed up of it here, so it seems.

    "I wonder what professional I should see to rid me of my switching or whatever, so I can be a static zombie adhering to group think."

    Straw man... go fuck yourself.

    "Lack of dysfunction in guys like Andrews is proven by the fact that he has accomplished VARIOUS tasks."

    What lack of dysfunction? You're talking bollocks, you little shit. I have my set of serious difficulties, and they definitely get in the way (stuff I've already told you but that you have wilfully ignored... why?). Appropriate support is being sought to make sure that their effect is minimalised. You're an arrogant little cunt if you think that statement was fucking right! Jesus fucking Christ, Cresp... how has nobody yet punched you for being such a presumptious little twat?

    "Joseph, don't talk to me like I'm a child. I've been listening to that stuff for long enough. I'm old enough to have children. I'm not getting any younger and I'm perceiving time as passing by faster as time goes on. Don't deceive me by telling me that you learned things since you were 25."

    He's not talking to you like you're a fucking child, you dozey little twat! You're behaving like a fucking child... whinge, whinge, fucking whinge!

    And yes, people DO learn many things after the age of 25... I did; I'd say that Joseph has, too. Age is no barrier to learning (including basic things like fucking LIVING skills... or learning how to stop fucking whinging).

    "Don't pretend for a second that I didn't have a lot of precious years ruined."

    I'm not pretending that you have, and nor is Joseph.

    "Self-assessments didn't produce my failures."

    Indeed not. But it's sure as fuck maintaining them. Your self-assessment is something you seem to see as fucking licence to whinge your arse off at people; but it's not. It's supposed to be a fucking WAKE-THE-FUCK-UP call to you, to start working on what issues you can work on, and deal with them properly (clue for you: whinging isn't that!), and work on other issues with the help of someone who can support you at close quarters.

    "I'm not looking for help from my attitude."

    Pity. Because that's what's holding you back, like it or not. You've already clinched your own failure in life by holding fast to an attitude that you WISH would get you endless fucking sympathy and have people bending over backwards to take YOUR shit on so you don't have to worry about it. Very passive-aggressive way of engaging with your world. Anon isn't wrong with the borderline personality possibility. Thing is... if that is what your diagnosis proved to be, then it's not YOU suffering from your personality: it's US!

    Either learn to shape the fuck up, or shut the fuck up. I'm not the only one here who's fed up with your constant fucking whinging.

    We're ALL fed up.

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  83. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  84. "I'd like to know how I'm wasting anyone's time when they're on here."

    Simple.

    If you weren't on here whinging like a fucking pathetic turd all the time, the others and I might actually be able to get back to discussing the issues that the thread is about instead of having to answer your incessant fucking whinging.

    Got it now???

    Good.

    Fuck off.

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  85. David, actually, many individuals have chosen and embarked on the beginnings of their careers by 25. Of course there are lots of youth who fool around for years before focusing and deciding on a career, but the ones who are decided about their career path at like 17 and 18, usually have started or are about to start their chosen career by 25. In the past, an even larger proportion of 25 year olds were already in their careers. I also claim I can't get better at my age due to my growth having ceased, as I'm pretty sure I'm past any developmental state of growth in which mental abilities increase.

    As I have had career ambitions way before I was even an adult, it's not tolerable for me to be nowhere at 25. I've wanted a career for a long time. If your dyslexia, dyspraxia, and autism weren't problems, then I don't get what the problem was. Obviously, they weren't severe enough to stop you from succeeding. I don't know what you needed in support though. I'm not trying to say it was easy for you. But since you came up with a way that worked for you, I know you had the capacity within you to be and remain successful.

    Don't compare my situation to yours. I'm nowhere near as smart as you. I can't work my way around small impediments to make success possible for me. Overall, I consider myself unpredictable, and up and down in my capacity to pursue skills and knowledge, so I can't rely on myself. You did a lot of things despite your difficulties. I can only imagine what it entailed just to make all of the arrangements you made to go to various schools and travel across countries. I can't depend on myself even to correctly do basic errands/tasks in the town I reside in.

    A while ago, I way overestimated my capabilities and what I could ultimately do. Over time I found out I could do less and less. I was very unrealistic about my career ambitions to the point of fantasy that I wouldn't confront myself about. That was one of the last overestimations of mine to catch up to me, and with destabilizing consequences and when it was too late to let down my ambitions orderly. I was then out of college, hardly successfully with a degree, with no job except a couple of temp jobs I messed up in.

    I had a rude awakening about my incapability of securing even menial jobs which I thought I could do. I never imagined in my most miserable moments as a teen that I would end up as a shut in as I have. On top of that crisis, I've been experiencing an even sharper decline in mental functioning. I didn't do too much whining or express too many "self-defeating" ideas. I didn't think I did so enough. I admit I made a lot of lackluster choices and was reckless and careless at times, but that wasn't the entire cause of my failure.

    I've racked my brain the past 2 years trying to think of some prospect for myself to go for so I could do something meaningful with myself. So I dared to quit for a while and tried to vegetate. I don't expect not to be condemned for doing so. I don't mind that I piss people off. I'm fucking sick of a lot of clueless creeps and vermin out there. I've done a lot of deplorable things in my past, but lots of others wouldn't even dream about enduring guilt for anything they did. I don't expect to get anything done with my approach.

    I know why I'm a loser. It is due to my mental disability. Period. My mental disability has had its chains on me since I was like 3 years old, long before I could have been responsible for anything or held accountable for "whining". I don't have a lot of control due to my very limited access to the abilities that persons use. My brain does not have the resources with which to make the control of myself sufficiently effective.

    I'm not making straw men here. Only the cowardly lying shit spewers on your side have done that. How could you have "serious" difficulties? You never told me you had such serious ones. I already admitted you told me that you had some difficulties. You never implied they were massive. If they get in the way, how are you able to maintain employment in your demanding profession, especially in the face of the authorities who run the profession you work in who you seem to be at odds with? I'm sorry nobody has thrown me any beatings before. I'm not scared to get one either right now.

    What Joseph said to me is nonsense to be told to a child. I don't need that bullshit. If anyone talked to you like that, you would flip out like you are doing now. I'm "whinging" because I fucking want to as anyone would want to from being screwed over so severely. I can't do a lot other than to whine. But, I didn't want to be a whiny twat. I wanted to be a man. A real man, unlike the loads of sissies and faggots that you like and that generally think like you, even though being a man is so unacceptable and marginalized these days.

    Learning is not the same thing as having an increase in the capacity to learn. You know that. If someone hasn't learned basic skills by my age, it's highly likely that many of them can't be learned by them. Don't cover up that tragedy. Self-assessments aren't stopping me from accepting trying things again eventually. They aren't even needed to maintain my failure as my mental impairment remains and maintains that failure for me. I don't ask for permission to whine and moan. I don't know what to do with my issues. I can't repair myself. I'm working on getting access to a vocational service soon so I can work on getting a job. You can't say I'm doing nothing.

    I'm not looking for sympathy here. I sure as fuck don't expect anyone to bend over backwards to relieve me of my worries. Even if I wanted that, I already know from being ambushed by individuals elsewhere that they don't care about or even acknowledge the seriousness of my problems. I don't care at all what personality I have. I want there to be a time when the fortunate will to have to answer for what offensive and unacceptable personalities they have.

    In case you want to know, I didn't ask for you guys to talk about me and my problems. I wasn't looking to talk about myself here. But I wasn't about to lay down and endure the slander and your making of an example of me. I don't care how many out of touch creeps have a problem with my attitude. I loathe the idea of being obsequious and amiable with them while they acquiesce to my deplorable condition.

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  86. David, that doesn't answer my question. Of what importance are the having of those discussions on here?

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  87. "Of what importance are the having of those discussions on here?"

    You'd find out a lot easier by just shutting the fuck up.

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  88. "David, actually, many individuals have chosen and embarked on the beginnings of their careers by 25."

    And still many get into that after they're 25, you dim git. Reason you're not doing it is because you want everyone else to take on your shit so you don't have to.

    Go and ask some employers if they'll employ you. If they won't, ask them why. Chances are they'll say it's your pathetic attitude... we're not here to give you the fucking answers... that's YOUR job: find your own fucking answers.

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  89. "If your dyslexia, dyspraxia, and autism weren't problems, then I don't get what the problem was."

    They were issues to be dealt with, and factored into how I might best learn and be assessed on that learning. The problem was getting the support, you dozey cretin. I'm fed up of explaining that to you.

    Once appropriate support was found, things went better. It's context based, and I'm surprised that someone who can write at length like you do cannot get his head around that notion. It's down to your own lack of initiative in taking responsibility.

    What is wrong with you????

    You're a fucking whinger.

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  90. "I don't mind that I piss people off."

    I think you should mind that you do that. Everybody you piss off minds.

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  91. "I didn't want to be a whiny twat"

    So why are you being one?

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  92. I don't want to wait till I'm middle aged to start a career. I'm not even happy with how I must spend the time before that anyway. My attitude hasn't lost me much of any success. Stop fucking lying about me. You were capable of doing the necessary learning overall. That's a difference between you and me. Supports by themselves can't enable anyone to do things. They don't work for all individuals.

    You hardly will acknowledge a single point I make as you know I'm being honest and you can't handle that. Fuck that bullshit about "responsibility". I don't care that those assholes are pissed off. If I like someone, I'll be nice to them. If I don't and I'm not beholden to them, I won't. Get used to it bastard. I'll be a "whiny twat" as long as you continue to hinder progressive policies.

    Just about all things argued about on here on your side of the debate, not including talk about merits of treatments/supports, is just obstructionist nonsense. The various individuals actively involved in the issues discussed are very busy and have many hurdles to overcome, and surely don't need you and the other ND thugs breathing down their necks and undermining them with your "diversity" charade.

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  93. "Stop fucking lying about me."

    You don't like being lied about? So why do you do it to me and to others here?

    "They don't work for all individuals."

    But if someone can do what you're doing here, then it is a fucking good bet that they will!

    "You hardly will acknowledge a single point I make as you know I'm being honest and you can't handle that."

    Why should I? You don't acknowledge anything put to you about the ideas given to you by me and others here. And - something I can prove to anyone who wants to ask - it's known that you are a fucking lying twat anyway! You lied to Clay! You lied your fucking arse off to him! So, your bit there about being honest... you call lying your lazy cock off to a concerned and sympathetic person like Clay 'honest'? I doubt that anyone here would say that it was.

    Take your evident personality disorder away out of here, and fuck off.

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  94. David, I didn't lie about you all. "But if someone can do what you're doing here, then it is a fucking good bet that they will!" I'm not sure what you mean. I won't accept the nonsense that is presented to me through their equivocation. I sometimes consider ideas, but still end up rejecting them. I'm trying to understand what you and others are contending and intend, and then respond based on that.

    You refuse to address the specific things I explain as you can't refute them to defend your position. All that I think I see you doing is spitting nails in anger as I refuse to stop exposing the truth about you creeps, and as I refuse to be browbeaten by you into submitting to your nonsense.

    I would cease to argue with you and the others if they would stop their crusade against cure and stop defending the creeps who are committed to hindering its development, and stop attacking those who support cure. I didn't lie to Clay. I'm sick of it when someone implies that anyone who isn't successful due to a lack of capability is lazy. I think it's the fortunate ones who tend to get lazy. I don't like your personality. I'd love to deem your personality as a menacing threat to society.

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  95. "I didn't lie to Clay."

    Um...

    Actually, you did. You lied your pathetic little cock off to him.

    And now you're lying to your fucking self.

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  96. "I don't like your personality. I'd love to deem your personality as a menacing threat to society."

    I'm just responding to you as I think your deserve, after you wasted my time, and Clay's, and Cube's....

    People who actually know me think I'm one of the most compassionate people they know. I got fed up of wasting my compassion on you. You don't deserve it.

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  97. Prove I lied to him. You don't have any compassion for me. I don't want your compassion. I won't silence my views in return for your compassion or help. I don't care how many people kiss your ass as you have the charisma to sway others. Any of the time you spend here arguing against cure is a waste of time.

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  99. "Any of the time you spend here arguing against cure is a waste of time."

    And here's the root of all this little wanker's fucking acrimony against us all here: we don't support this 'cure' mentality.

    He's gonna come here and derail ALL discussion until the end of time if he can; I'm thinking that he's here to cause trouble. Joseph... what can we do about him?

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  100. David, since you stand against cure, there is nothing to convince me to not derail the discussions here off of the intended path. I basically want to repudiate the nonsense in the discussions and support some of the views that are contrary to yours. I want to keep up my efforts to subvert your ideals. But I didn't want this ridiculous exchange I'm currently having with you.

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  101. "David, since you stand against cure, there is nothing to convince me to not derail the discussions here off of the intended path. I basically want to repudiate the nonsense in the discussions and support some of the views that are contrary to yours. I want to keep up my efforts to subvert your ideals. But I didn't want this ridiculous exchange I'm currently having with you."

    A greater justification for banning this wanker I cannot imagine! Joseph... over to you, mate.

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  102. Joseph... what can we do about him?

    I don't like the inconsequential repetitive comments either, but he hasn't done anything that warrants banning him, which technically is not easy to manage.

    And Lurker, no one is asking you to keep quiet in exchange for anything. But you do need help. There are therapies that work for a lot of people. I mean, they won't help you with your impairments, but they can help you with your irrational self-talk and things of that nature, which in turn will help with the depression and anxiety I'm sure you must have.

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  103. "I don't like the inconsequential repetitive comments either, but he hasn't done anything that warrants banning him, which technically is not easy to manage."

    I just wish he'd shut up or sod off, really.

    I'd expect someone who can make a decision to annoy the shit out of people to also be able to make a decision to do one of those two alternatives.

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  104. "There are therapies that work for a lot of people. I mean, they won't help you with your impairments, but they can help you with your irrational self-talk and things of that nature, which in turn will help with the depression and anxiety I'm sure you must have."

    I know about these things, and you do; Cube does too, I'm sure...I really don't think that Cresp is interested. He doesn't give a shit. He just wants to to disrupt discussion here.

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  105. WELL ! I wasn't aware that this conversation had picked up again. I know I had checked it several times, but Liz's post of the 8th was the last one I was aware of, until David alerted me this morning.

    So Billy, I see you've gone back to your rude and arrogant ways. This is exactly what holds you back IRL, son. Unaware of this discussion, I wrote to you privately yesterday, you haven't responded yet.

    It took me hours to muddle through all this acrimony. (And I also had to watch "This Week" with George Stephanopoulis and the President's press conference.)

    Billy, no one has lied to you here. You seem to have some very unrealistic expectations, and believe that we somehow "support" unequal mental capabilities. We don't have any control over that. No one does. You seem to want something like brain surgery to correct any mental disabilities. That's just isn't going to happen, son, not in this life or 10 generations from now.

    You seem to believe that it's better to not exist at all than to exist in a world where people have unequal abilities or have any disadvantages compared to other people. You think that all those who have abilities that you don't are actively oppressing you. No, it's not us holding you back, but your own attitudes, beliefs, and unrealistic view of life.

    I want to clear up something here. First, Billy, know that I did not send any part of your letters to me to David. Not a word.

    Your only "lie" to me was that you said your real name wasn't Billy, but "Andy". Right on the heels of that, because my computer added your address to it's list, and I happened to send out some invites on Change.org, I noticed a new name there, Billy Cresp. I then accessed some of your comments there, and saw that you advocated selective abortion to "solve" autism, which really pissed me off. No, us ND types don't believe that's any "solution" at all.

    If you're as "mentally incompetent" as you say, what makes you think your opinion is worth anything? Oh, you only know that your life is miserable. Well, you're the only one who can really change that. You want "normalcy" to be handed to you, like in a pill? Ain't gonna happen, no matter how much you wish or pray, or whine or wheedle.

    You think that us "high-functioning" aspies don't care about those whose problems are more defined? I'll prove you wrong, if you'll let me. I want to meet with you, spend a couple of days talking with you, in person. I don't know how best to effect this - sending you a bus or train ticket to my town would be less hassle for me, but I don't think I want you in my home. (No offense, it would be difficult to have anyone in my home for that long.) I don't really want to go to your hometown, because I'd have to drive through NYC to do so. (I've done that before, to visit a friend of a friend, not something I'd want to do again.) Another idea would be to meet somewhere on my side of NYC, perhaps Philly. I could send you a round-trip bus or train ticket there.

    Meeting would not in itself be a "help" to you, but it would help me to understand you, and be a step toward helping you. If you can handle getting on a bus or train, I'll meet you on the other end. I'll cover all expenses. How's that?

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  106. "Your only 'lie' to me was that you said your real name wasn't Billy, but 'Andy'".

    Indeed I know nothing of what was said in the emails, save that fact; but that is enough.

    You lied, Cresp... because you knew that -if you gave your real name- things might not have gone as you'd have liked. You tried to piss up Clay's back whilst telling him it was raining. You disrespectful little shit.

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  107. Clay...

    He's out to piss up people's backs.

    There's fuck all you can do to help him beause that's not what he wants. Whatever you say to him will be met with a total wall of negativity.

    He's best left to his own fate, which - whether he likes it or not - is in his fucking hands. And good fuckign ridance to him.

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  108. David said:
    There's fuck all you can do to help him because that's not what he wants. Whatever you say to him will be met with a total wall of negativity.You may be right, and I have shared that opinion, but I would like to try to understand him, and I'm actually pretty good at that in a one-on-one situation.

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  110. Understood, Clay, and fair play to you, my friend. But I'm very clear about his motives for being here now. I don't trust him.

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  111. Joseph, I don't know what irrational self-talk is. I don't see how therapy would help with my being depressed. I'm anxious due to my fear of what else my mental weakness will do to me. I don't think therapy is completely out of the question for me though. I think you should focus on other individuals who would better benefit from therapy than me.

    Clay, I don't frequently check my e-mail. I'll get back to you when I read it. How does this rudeness of mine hold me back at anything else? I don't act like this much outside of these forums. David's rudeness doesn't hold him back either outside of here. I can't deny that some of the individuals here were being deceptive. I think society is about to be capable of controlling mental capabilities through technologies and research. You and the others don't have evidence that it's unrealistic or that it can't happen until a long time from now. Even though it won't happen soon, it will never happen if nobody starts to look for such cures. I'd like you to consider how unrealistic your proposed and implied alternatives to cure are. I can't think that you're not supporting the inequality in mental capabilities, when those of you have been this way about cure.

    How would be being obsequious and benevolent to all I encounter do anything for me? You don't want to admit that I would still be disadvantaged as you don't want to admit that lots of individuals would basically just flounder in the system you support. I can't understand how you expect me to make myself better when I don't have the means to. These "personal responsibility" and "help yourself" vibes are nonsense to me when it comes to societal problems and ones related to them. You don't want to portray my talk here as anything but rude disruption as you don't want to acknowledge the slightest idea that your side's ideas may not be completely acceptable, as if nobody could be credible in contradicting your side.

    I believe you that you didn't send David any my of letters to you. I'm not worried about that. I never wanted you to have the impression that my name was Billy. I didn't completely avoid anyone assuming that was true though, but I didn't think it would matter or that that alias of mine would come up in discussion. I didn't really advocate selective abortion to solve autism. I was objecting to a way of being against it that I thought was deceptive. Anyway, selective abortion wouldn't solve the problem but only make it worse.

    I don't see how anyone's mental incompetence hinders their opinion from being valid. I only think that ignorance prevents opinions from being valid. How would meeting me help you understand me? What can't you understand from our exchanges on here?

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  112. David, I don't want to disclose my real name on here. I don't want to deal with any risks involved. I wonder if the cowards who bitch and fuck around on these forums under the title Anonymous want to deal with those risks either. How would things have gone if I disclosed my real name? I don't care about your bringing of these petty details up so you can avoid sticking to the topic.

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  113. "I don't care about your bringing of these petty details up so you can avoid sticking to the topic."

    I'm not avoiding sitcking to a topic. I just don't see the point win wasting time trying to discuss something with you for which there is a solid basis in research when all your interest here is in trying to disrupt the discussion.

    You have basically admitted to being a fucking troll. So go the fuck away.

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  114. I'm sick of being called a troll just for disagreeing. What is it that you contend, that has a solid basis in research? I'm not trying to disrupt the discussion for no reason. I want to contradict the things being said here which I think are offensive. I don't think you're entitled to having me agree with you.

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  115. I can handle disagreement provided that it's backed up with some references. You don't provide any sort of back-up- you just go contrary to ANYthing said to you.

    That is trolling.

    Go and fuck yourself.

    "I'm not trying to disrupt the discussion for no reason."

    Yes, you are.

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  116. Joseph, I don't know what irrational self-talk is.

    That's exactly it, Lurker. You need to learn what it is.

    One example: telling yourself that a world that isn't completely fair, where everyone isn't the same, is not worth living in.

    Another example: Telling yourself that you are incompetent at everything, that you necessarily screw up everything you do.

    These are false, irrational beliefs. The unavoidable effect of these false beliefs is depression and anxiety.

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  117. Joseph...

    I'd say you're wasting your time trying to explain it to him. I think he knows and I think that his behaviour is probably being reinforced by any attempts to try and guide him or help him. It's likely that ANY attention given to him is doing this; he's going to do this as long as we take time to deal with him.

    I don't thing this train of posts if his will stop until he's not here. He's like Best... aiming to niggle and argue black is white without backing his statements up.

    Borderline personality? Maybe. Attention whore? Definitely.

    I'd like him to shut the fuck up.

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  119. Lurker said:

    "Joseph, I don't know what irrational self-talk is."That's those crazy things you tell yourself. The trouble with being isolated is that you don't get valid, reality-based input, you only get your own imaginations reinforced. I know, I've been there!

    "I don't see how therapy would help with my being depressed."Said the 6 ft tall person, standing in an 8 ft hole.

    "I'm anxious due to my fear of what else my mental weakness will do to me."There's the great danger it will confuse you, causing you to be on the wrong side of the issues.

    Not for nothing, but have you noticed that Jonathan Weasel (I mean, Mitchell) hasn't been here to back you up? He just can't comment any place where he can't delete others' responses.

    "How would meeting me help you understand me?"Is that a "No" then? I would think you'd be bored out of your skull, being a shut-in, doing the same ol' same ol'. This would be a break from that.

    "What can't you understand from our exchanges on here?"I can be very perceptive, but online it's really little more than conjecture. Real life has a tendency to be real.

    (Edited, because I didn't like how my responses were "run on" with what I was responding to.)

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  120. Damn it, it did it again!

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  121. A paragraph break after italics is not working for some reason. I'd suggest leaving the last punctuation in the quoted sentence out of the italicized text.

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  122. David, I don't need references to discuss things concerning common knowledge. The specific things we were debating don't need lots of references to elucidate, and you didn't show any references either.

    You shouldn't be suspicious about my intent in debate, when confronted with increasing numbers of instances in which I contradict you. Consider that it's possible that almost all things you say are bullshit and nonsense, and that you're determined to keep spewing it. No matter how many times you run the same crap by me, I'm not going to accept it.

    I don't need any backup to prove that you're not a highly mentally impaired man, aside from evidence that you have the profession that you have. I'm not even sure what you've been trying to contend here with your bashing of me. Troll, whatever. I don't care what you call me. I'm sick of you being a pretentious asshole.

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  123. Troll... piss off and leave the big boys to talk. You're getting really fucking annoying now.

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  124. Joseph, why is it irrational for me to complain that things aren't fair, but ok for all others to? I tell myself I'm incompetent only as it has been proven through the course of events that I am incompetent as I couldn't do and learn stuff. No other crazy reason. That is not irrational. There is no disproving that those thoughts are true. I'm not in a delusion where I'm thinking memories that didn't happen. I think I'm aware of what is generally going on. I'm not a lunatic. I think it's unavoidable to be depressed due to my problems.

    Clay, what am I imagining? What am I really like then? What have I really done throughout the years? What "reality-based input" are you talking about? "Said the 6 ft tall person, standing in an 8 ft hole." What does that mean? Please, don't try to turn me against Mitchell now. I'm not gullible enough to fall for divide and isolate tactics. I really am very bored. I stare out the window a lot and try to sleep extra to pass the time. I don't know what to think about meeting you.

    David, I think you're just livid that you were just a wimpy jerk-off with nothing going for you, before you went into academia and into your career and became the hot shot that you are now. Don't take it out on me that others mistreated you when you were a youth, or that you didn't make the best choices to pull yourself together for so many years.

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  125. Billy Cresp (Lurker), none of us are buying your nonsense anymore. You need help, and the first thing you need to do is accept that Autism can not be cured. Fact. You pushing a cure makes you as bad as Best and you know it. Don't deny it and play the sympathy card. You're not getting any because you are a liar, a cheat and a troll to boot.

    All you want is attention. Well you are going to get the wrong sort if you keep up this drivel. Joseph, Clay, David and I know more about the Autistic Spectrum than you ever will - and don't you forget it!!

    Stop yapping and start listening to those who know - or just nick off.

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  126. Timelord, you have no solid evidence that the mental impairments of autism can't be cured. I don't think Best is even bad. I don't want your sympathy. What help could possibly help me? But forget about me. I want you to think of the many other individuals out there, some of whom haven't been born yet, who will and who already face the low-functioning end of autism and may have to endure it. Since you all are such experts about it, why don't you stop supporting the ND lunatics who spread inaccurate and dubious information about autism?

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  127. "Don't take it out on me that others mistreated you when you were a youth, or that you didn't make the best choices to pull yourself together for so many years."

    Fuck off, stupid little shit. There isn't a single choice in my life that equates to the stupidity you've indulged yourself in during your life. You're responsible for the fact that you're a little shit who will never make anything happen for youself. Get used to it: that is your life.

    "But forget about me."

    We'd fucking love to. And if you'd just fuck off out of here, we fucking would!

    But you're lingering, like the stench of the turds that stick to your arse all the time.

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  128. Well, I think I'll sorta get used to that fact eventually. Why don't you stop talking about me, and just address the viewpoints I contend?

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  129. I don't think Best is even bad.

    That's yet another irrational belief that can only lead to depression and anxiety.

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  130. Joseph, it isn't up to you to deem what is irrational. I can't condemn Best's harsh ways, when the real issue he is involved in concerns the very harsh and unjust reality that is not being dealt with strongly and progressively by many involved in the issue.

    I have no respect for motives to maintain stability and decency in discourse, in the face of factions that promote backward agendas to maintain the pathetic and miserable conditions that now prevail.

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  131. "I have no respect for motives to maintain stability and decency in discourse, in the face of factions that promote backward agendas to maintain the pathetic and miserable conditions that now prevail."

    The only one maintaining pathetic and miserable conditions is you. By still fucking being here.

    Fuck off, Cresp, you pathetic little wanker.

    -----------------------------------

    Now, Joseph... over to you. Cresp is determined to fuck to blog. He's not gonna rest until he has. Him and Best are made of the same type of shit, and I never thought I'd say this but out of the trinity of Best, Mitchell and Cresp... at least Mitchell can come back with SOMEthing to back up his claims.

    Yes, Jonathan... at this point, your pals Johnny and Billy are making you look like a fucking genius. I know you haven't felt like one up to present, but take this as written: your intellectual abilities are moe than the combined abilities of Best and Cresp. And, no, I'm actually NOT taking the piss out of you here... you are more intellectually able than them. I don't agree with your stance, but I do acknowledge that you at least try to back up what you say on matters related to topic... I've seen your blog and also the somment you posted on this thread... and yes ... "Did these people achieve because they were confident or were they confident because they achieved?" is a pertinent question. Personally, I think they go hand in hand but I'm also of the opinion - based on what I learned both as an undergraduate in my teacher training and as a postgraduate as a trainee educational psychologist - that you can kick start the process by setting goals that, whilst not impossible, do take some effort to achieve. It seems that the combination of achievable goal and expenditure of effort to achieve that goal are key ingredients in any sort of 'recipe for success'. I'll try and find a reference for that, when marking an M. Ed. thesis permits.

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  132. Dammit David, it's not all about you; it's not about the things you do on here with others or about your fucking career!! This is about what is going on OUT there, with those dealing with the problems that come to many on the spectrum! Get your head out of your ass. These ridiculous anti-cure conflicts you embark on here aren't doing shit for those you imply you care about. They aren't supporting anyone else's efforts to make things go halfway decent or make things better. Think of all of the energy you and the other ND thugs squander.

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  134. "This is about what is going on OUT there, with those dealing with the problems that come to many on the spectrum! Get your head out of your ass. These ridiculous anti-cure conflicts you embark on here aren't doing shit for those you imply you care about."

    Listen, twat. I've just spent the fucking morning working with my child's school staff, trying to figure out ways that we can make her learning experiences better for her, as well as to make it less traumatic for all concerned when things do go cunt up. Since 'cure' for her difficulties is a fucking pointless pipedream with fuck all chance of becoming a reality, your plan of wasting effort and time on cure at the expense of doing what the staff at the school, my daughter's mother and I are trying to do (which is actually change the situation!) is fucking ridiculous at best and possibly dangerous at worst.

    Now, be a good little boy and get the fuck out of our lives here. All you've done is make this thread about you. You egotistical piece of shit.

    "This is about what is going on OUT there, with those dealing with the problems that come to many on the spectrum!"

    And you're doing... what... exactly? Except for complaining because your anal-retentive idea that you DESERVE to be perfectly able in fucking everything hasn't panned out in practice? Well, listen, tosspot... you aren't going to get that. It won't happen. That ISN'T how life works. Don't like it? Tough.

    Now fuck off. You've demonstrated that you're a useless little cocksucker, and we all believe that you are. That's what you made of yourself. Enjoy it. Fill your fucking boots.

    But do it somewhere else.

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  135. David, I don't know what difficulties your child has so I can't assume you have a significant stake in this. I don't know if she even needs a cure. Effort doesn't have to be removed from services/coping to research cure. They aren't mutually exclusive. Stop pitting those things against each other! You have no evidence at all that cure is impossible. I've had enough of that impossibility excuse against cure from ND. Before that, I've seen ND use the general "cure is demeaning, there's no problem to be cured, don't cure difference" argument. Before that, I've seen the early NDers use the "cure could eliminate necessary autistic geniuses" argument. I wonder what excuse ND will come up with next, when the one they have now isn't enough. You're not involved in the research into its etiology/treatment so if you aren't involved in that or don't want to be, stay the fuck out of the way!

    Looking for a cure for those in need of it is no threat to your child. I'm not getting in the way of you helping her. You go and look out for your own. You don't care about anyone else's child, so don't stick your nose into the efforts of others to push for cure. Your family isn't the only one that matters. I think this incessant self-interest and individualism needs to be wiped out, as I don't see how things will get better without concern for the collective.

    I didn't make this thread about me. You did that. I never asked for your remarks. You're the egotistical pedantic cock sucker, who for that reason, I think could care less about anyone with mental weakness. Listen to yourself. Think about how annoying you are. Look at yourself, at that arrogant pretentious look you have on your face. I'm fucking sick of it.

    I, personally, may deserve nothing, but I think just about any other person deserves to be able. It doesn't matter to me if I'm worthy because that's not what my goal of arguing here is about, so I'm not going to sit here and just let you and the other ND demagogues gain the power you seek, without putting up a struggle against such ambitions. I hate the fucking tyranny that you want to impose on so many people with every bone in my body. If you're so pissed off talking to me and don't want to waste the time in doing so, then don't talk to me!!!

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  136. "If you're so pissed off talking to me and don't want to waste the time in doing so, then don't talk to me!!!"

    Make it easier, and fuck off. It's not just me you're pissing off. How long do you think it will be before Joseph does to you what he did to your boyfriend Best?

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  137. Cresp, read this and understand;

    Timelord, you have no solid evidence that the mental impairments of autism can't be cured.There are no impairments in the root condition. That shows how much you understand for a start.

    I don't think Best is even bad.You're right. He's not bad. He's disgusting and rotten to the core.

    I don't want your sympathy.You're not getting it.

    What help could possibly help me?Support, understanding and acceptance to boost your self esteem and re-educate you.

    But forget about me.Nope. Not until you stop posting on Blogger permanently.

    I want you to think of the many other individuals out there, some of whom haven't been born yet, who will and who already face the low-functioning end of autism and may have to endure it.I am. You aren't. You're all about yourself and no one else because you preach intolerance - which will have a BAD effect on the people you are telling me to think about when I already am!

    Since you all are such experts about it, why don't you stop supporting the ND lunatics who spread inaccurate and dubious information about autism?We are experts because we understand - and most importantly we know the truth of Neurodiversity. And it is not lunacy - it is fact. You are the one trying to stop the distribution of correct information with your trolling. It has got to the point that unfortunately the only way to get through your thick skull about this is to slap it around. Because you won't listen to anything as you don't want to learn.

    So fuck off - Horrible Autistic Adult to be (at present - final decision on May 23).

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  138. Nice one, Phil.

    I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who's seen this obnoxious tosser's totally selfish nature.

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  139. David said:
    I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who's seen this obnoxious tosser's totally selfish nature. ---------Yeah, since he doesn't want any help, but just to argue and whine, he's just another useless wank-monkey like Mitchell.

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  140. "... he's just another useless wank-monkey like Mitchell."

    What? As opposed to another self-sucking blow-job-monkey like Best? ;)

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  141. David said:
    What? As opposed to another self-sucking blow-job-monkey like Best? ;) --------------------

    I have it on good authority (his old buddy Jerry Newport), that Mitchell can only use a thumb and one-fingered grip, because they both suffer from the same shortcomings.

    Now stop trying to be funnier than me! ;-)

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  142. David said:
    PMHOL!!!!-----

    What's that? I don't understand Suomi (Finnish).

    (You can't win, y'know.)

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  143. Timelord, no impairments in root condition? Whatever the impairments come from, why not eliminate them? "Acceptance" won't boost my self-esteem. I don't want to be patronized. I don't want to be an obedient docile zombie. Why don't you send me to a re-education camp then?

    Why must an issue be made out of me personally? How am I all about myself because of "intolerance"? I won't tolerate nonsense and those who promote it. What/who am I supposed to "tolerate"? ND does not come with being an expert. Almost no reputable person would recognize any credibility of ND at this point. You have no right to deem subjective ideas as correct information.

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  145. A really annoyingly thick piece of shit said: "Joseph, it isn't up to you to deem what is irrational."

    The same annoyingly thick piece of shit said: "I won't tolerate nonsense and those who promote it."

    The same fuckwad said: "You have no right to deem subjective ideas as correct information."

    So, ATPoS, whilst you tell Joseph that it isn't up to him to 'deem what is rational', you do think that you have the sole right here to 'deem what is or isn't nonsense'... and tell Joseph that he has 'no right to deem subjective ideas as correct information' when you've been doing exactly that (and on the basis of no actual science) all the time you've been trying to fuck this thread?

    Arrogant little fucker, aren't you? Overinflated sense of your own importance, just like Best. If you are as 'mentally impaired' as you claim, how the fuck do you manage to produce logic like... oh ... I get it now...

    Your 'mental impairment' is a delusion that you are allowed to say what is or isn't nonsense, and nobody here is allowed to say what is or isn't rational, nonsense, or subjective or correct... only YOU are allowed to do that!

    Fucking arrogant psychotic little twat. When are you supposed to go back in, Cresp? Or do they not know you're out, yet?

    Either way, you're not where you fucking belong.

    And you certainly don't belong here! SO, fuck off, now... there's a good boy!

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  146. David, I thought I told you not to talk to me. I don't deem what is or isn't nonsense. I want to set the record straight about what is nonsense. What I contend and what they contend about what is rational isn't on equivalent footing. I'm not the one spewing crazy ideas and unbelievable things like not hating Best leads to depression and anxiety.

    It's not like you all can back up that what you say isn't nonsense. I don't have any importance. The importance of what I discuss surpasses any one person. I don't belong much of anywhere. Quit bothering me as you cannot refute the things I say.

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  147. @Lurker: If you don't care too much for the concept of self-esteem, or deem it impossible to attain for you, that's fine. I'd recommend you familiarize yourself with the writings of Albert Ellis on the subject. He in fact considers self-esteem to be self-defeating and destructive (I've read A Guide to Rational Living) and suggests that a healthier alternative is unconditional self-acceptance.

    Unconditional self-acceptance, being unconditional, does not require any evaluation of self. You basically accept yourself because you exist.

    Now, I don't know if Ellis is correct or not about self-esteem, but if you really are so inherently incompetent at everything as you claim (which I think is unlikely), and you think there's no way you can have esteem for yourself under the circumstances, you can still have unconditional self-acceptance. I'd suggest you give it a try, otherwise I don't want to think about how you'll end up.

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  148. I'm not the one spewing crazy ideas and unbelievable things like not hating Best leads to depression and anxiety.

    That's not crazy at all. If you agree with Best that autistics need to be euthanized, for example, then you're assigning yourself a worth of zero. Of course this will result in depression and anxiety.

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  149. Well, Albert Ellis seems kind of interesting then. I'm not sure what it really means to accept oneself. I never agreed with Best about euthanasia. I doubt he was even serious about that.

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  150. (sigh)...All the women have left this conversation. Can't blame them, it's only devolved into a pissing contest, and they're no good at that. If they tried to participate in a pissing contest, the only result would be a lot of soggy shoes...



    ;-)

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  151. "I don't deem what is or isn't nonsense."

    Oh yeah? Try this:

    "I basically want to repudiate the nonsense in the discussions and support some of the views that are contrary to yours."

    In order to do that, you have to be claiming the right to decide what is or isn't nonsense. Unless you're only parroting someone else, without understanding what you're parroting.

    "I want to set the record straight about what is nonsense."

    And who determines what is or isn't nonsense in your mind if not you? Or are you just parroting someone else, without really understanding what you're parroting?

    "It's not like you all can back up that what you say isn't nonsense."

    Because that's not where the burden of proof is. Which I suspect that you either know but are ignoring, or you don't know and are therefore way out of your depth here. Either way, you're batting with the big boys now and you are SO doing badly.

    "The importance of what I discuss surpasses any one person."

    More grandeur delusion. You suck at this. So fucking badly!!!

    "David, I thought I told you not to talk to me."

    And I thought that I - and at least two others - had told you to fuck off. So, here's a deal for you... you fuck off, and I'll stop talking to you. Okay?

    I bet you can't do it... you're such an attention whore.

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  152. The importance of what I discuss surpasses any one person.

    That's funny coming from someone who claims to be good for nothing.

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  153. "That's funny coming from someone who claims to be good for nothing."

    Good point, Joseph.

    "Now, I don't know if Ellis is correct or not about self-esteem, but if you really are so inherently incompetent at everything as you claim (which I think is unlikely), and you think there's no way you can have esteem for yourself under the circumstances, you can still have unconditional self-acceptance."

    Ellis - although I'm not sure either if he's actually totally correct on the self-esteem issue - does have a useful poing regarding it, in that linking one's self-esteem (or self-worth) to parameters relating to transient things like performance is pretty dodgy: day one, I do something really well and I'm worth the world but the next day I don't do it so well... "back", as Ellis said, "to shit-hood for me".

    So, qualitatively, at least, it's plausible.

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  154. Well, I consider what I'm doing is that I'm debating. I don't expect that you'll agree with what I contend. I think I am exercising the right to consider what is or isn't nonsense. But I'm not trying to make it up. I want to come close to what the truth is. I try to determine what nonsense is or isn't based on what I observe and my consideration of my observations. I'm not copying anyone. I've been wondering and trying to get you to rationally explain why your views are valid. I don't think those views can be defended that way, so I think that's why I've received evasive attacks in response. And I think I have common sense on my side. I think the burden on proof is on you. I won't fuck off.

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  155. "I think I am exercising the right to consider what is or isn't nonsense."

    Doesn't mean you're not talking bollocks.

    And - quite frankly - you are!

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  157. "I think the burden on proof is on you."

    Wrong.

    You want to assert that what I might have to say is wrong... it's for YOU to prove it's wrong, not for me to prove it's not wrong. That's how science works, shit-for-brains.

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  158. David, prove it's bollocks. This isn't science. You also want to assert that things I have said are wrong. When is the burden of proof ever on you?

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  159. "When is the burden of proof ever on you?"

    Actually, given how you entered all this, never.

    You came here with the idea of stating - without evidence to back your claims up - that anything said here is nonsense. So the burden of proof is ALWAYS on you.

    And - to paraphrase Morrissey - 'you just haven't proved it yet, baby'!

    What a fucking wanker you are.

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  160. David, I didn't come here completely with that idea. What more do I need than common sense to refute the things said here?

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  162. "What more do I need than common sense to refute the things said here?"

    Plenty more, not that you have even that.

    Common sense is what Aristotle's physics was about; science is what Newton's was about. Big difference, and you need to know the fucking difference before you can comment cogently on anything.

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  164. David, I don't need scientific proof of the impracticality of your views on issues which concern societal policy. I have my views about those things, and I think your contrary views on them are rotten shit. None of this bullshit you try to stick up for that I'm against is helping.

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  165. Clay, I don't intend to contradict all things that those on your side say. I don't see your point.

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  166. Lurker said:

    David, I didn't come here completely with that idea. What more do I need than common sense to refute the things said here?----------------

    Bullshit! You argued the same things in the same way months ago on LB/RB. There's no truth to you.

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  169. "David, I don't need scientific proof of the impracticality of your views on issues which concern societal policy. I have my views about those things, and I think your contrary views on them are rotten shit. None of this bullshit you try to stick up for that I'm against is helping."

    Fucking Christ! This is like JBJr junior!!!! There's nothing original in what you're saying, boy! You can have your views, by all means but don't expect them to command much fucking respect if you can't back them up properly. And that is something you really can't do; and - the way you're going now - you'll never be able to fucking do!

    You think that -even with your claimed 'mental incompetence'- you have everything you need to have (skills-wise) to debate anything, but you are well-deluded on that one. I know Finnish non-native speakers of English who don't have a university education who could still run rings round you when it comes to making a valid argument supporting a given point of view... and I couldn't give a shit whether you think you CAN do that, because I know you CAN'T: it's my fucking JOB to know! You wouldn't get into high school with the 'critical' 'thinking' 'skills' you (think you) have... certainly not here. And I can't see any sort of academic skill in your arguments here- you're all piss and wind, and fuck all else.

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  170. Timelord, no impairments in root condition? Whatever the impairments come from, why not eliminate them?You can't eliminate something that isn't there!!

    "Acceptance" won't boost my self-esteem.You bet it will. You just don't have the guts to do it.

    I don't want to be patronized.Yes you do. That's part of your entire problem - a refusal to admit that fact.

    I don't want to be an obedient docile zombie.What do you think you are right now? Precisely that!

    Why don't you send me to a re-education camp then?If I lived in your area, I would do precisely that.

    Why must an issue be made out of me personally?Because you ask for it.

    How am I all about myself because of "intolerance"?Because you clearly don't care about others on the Autistic Spectrum.

    I won't tolerate nonsense and those who promote it.You shouldn't be tolerating yourself then - and that's why you need to change because it's turning you into a vegetable.

    What/who am I supposed to "tolerate"?Your inherent and unchangeable DIFFERENCE. Not impairment - DIFFERENCE.

    ND does not come with being an expert.Understanding of neurodiversity and acceptance of what it means is all that is needed on that score.

    Almost no reputable person would recognize any credibility of ND at this point.There you go again. Selfishness to the max. Open your eyes, Cresp. Every person who knows and understands neurodiversity knows it's credibility level.

    You have no right to deem subjective ideas as correct information.You are the one being subjective - because you deny flat out fact.

    Now shut up. You have no idea what you are talking about and we all know it. You can't win this debate because you are arguing from a false position based in personal bias and a complete lack of understanding of the Autistic Spectrum.

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  171. David, I don't need any formalities to back up what I say. I don't need skills to repudiate your fringe ideas that no sane person could actually believe. I don't care what you think of my academic skills, when you pretend that being intellectually impaired and impaired in other ways is something that doesn't need to be and shouldn't be reversed.

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  172. "I don't need skills to repudiate your fringe ideas that no sane person could actually believe."

    I deal with mainstream science and you call if fringe?

    How fucked up IS your fucking brain?

    You're a walking how-not-to ...

    Billy Cresp is how not to... do anything!

    As for my difficulties, I don't pretend.

    But it's fast becoming clear that you're pretending to have a 'mental incompetence' ... I bet we never get to now what it actually is! Cresp... you delude yourself in everything you say here. You're pretty much a danger to yourself.

    Go back in. They'll look after you there.

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  173. "David, I don't need any formalities to back up what I say."

    Actually... only a fucking idiot would say that!

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  174. Timelord, I don't need anyone's condescending acceptance. I don't want any paternalistic relationships. I don't want to be attached to superiors. I didn't make the discussion I embarked on days ago about me. Nothing can contradict that fact.

    Mental impairment isn't a redeeming, valuable, or contributive difference. There's no reason to see it as anything beyond the problem that it is. ND isn't believable by much of anyone. But I detest that it is being used by ever increasing numbers of despotic individuals. I'm not arguing against facts. Very few facts have been told to me here. I don't even consider your position respectable to be rationally debated. Timelord, almost nothing you say makes any sense, and I wonder if you even realize that. I seriously wonder if your sanity is intact.

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  175. David, then why don't you go and respect that I'm an idiot, since it's my diversity? Accommodate it or something.

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  176. "Timelord, almost nothing you say makes any sense, and I wonder if you even realize that. I seriously wonder if your sanity is intact."

    Actually, he makes more sense than you. I'd say that his sanity is well intact.

    Yours, on the other hand...

    I'm really having my doubts about that.

    Seriously.

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  177. "David, then why don't you go and respect that I'm an idiot, since it's my diversity? Accommodate it or something."

    It's not diversity... by your own admission.

    You wouldn't have the right thinking skills for the rigorous standards of work you'd have to do at any level of higher education. That cannot be accomodated. That needs remediation. That's why we develop study skills courses.

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  178. "It's not diversity... by your own admission" David, that's the point of my sarcasm. I've went through some higher education, and I don't remember any professors criticizing me on the basis of me not accepting crazy ideas. And about my lack of those skills, since I don't have them due to my idiocy, how could I possibly get them?

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  179. "I've went through some higher education, and I don't remember any professors criticizing me on the basis of me not accepting crazy ideas."

    Either they were dumbing down or they were in a shit college. Either way, your performance in every blog I've seen you on demonstrates a total lack of skills required for higher education.

    I think you're lying about it.

    You're digging yourself deeper into a hole.

    Whatever about your 'higher education'... I still wouldn't recommend you for a place in a good university: you wouldn't be capable of benefitting from the course without a better grounding in thinking and critical skills. Like it or not, you're not good at bluffing here. You're blustering and it's clear that you haven't even got the basic thinking skills to handle debate at a serious level. You're a vacuous arsehole that that has no shit in it... just passing only so much hot (and smelly) air.

    Get kicked out, did you?

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  180. "And about my lack of those skills, since I don't have them due to my idiocy, how could I possibly get them?"

    You work hard and you fucking learn them. I know someone whose IQ was measured at eighty-fucking-three. She now has two bachelor degrees, two postgraduate diplomas and has probably gotten her Ph. D. by now. How's she done it? Hard work.

    That what you're so fucking afraid of?

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  181. *Cresp's probably waiting on Best to tell him what to say....*

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  182. I wouldn't be surprised if they were dumbing down. May have been a shit college in some ways. I've wondered at times if my college was only about a step up above community college. My education seemed a lot more shaky in the latter two years of it.

    I don't really know what critical thinking skills are. I've heard that talked about a lot. It doesn't matter what my debating skills are, as it doesn't require many to refute the fringe views you have.

    Fuck that work hard bullshit. Lots of individuals have worked hard and not succeeded through no fault of their own. I'd like to see some of the poindexters out there work really hard to learn and understand things. There is a limit to what amount of success can be produced with a limited amount of mental resources to use. You would not dare jeopardize the recognition of the purported virtue and respect awarded to the elites or the legitimacy of the disparities in mental capacity by doing that.

    "I know someone whose IQ was measured at eighty-fucking-three. She now has two bachelor degrees, two postgraduate diplomas and has probably gotten her Ph. D. by now. How's she done it? Hard work." I don't believe that. Unless the iq was measured wrong or her mental functioning changed since that testing.

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  183. "Fuck that work hard bullshit."

    Lazy twat!

    "It doesn't matter what my debating skills are, as it doesn't require many to refute the fringe views you have."

    Lazy, lazy twat.

    "I don't believe that. Unless the iq was measured wrong or her mental functioning changed since that testing."

    Wrong. She'd probably get the same result if she was tested today. But she has qualified as I've said, and she's in the public domain... she's written books. Her two degrees are in social work and applied social studies; her posgraduate diplomas are in psychology, and her Ph. D. topic is Autism & Stress.

    IQ is not the main arbiter of whether a person will succeed in higher education. The tests for children are more geared to school-related skills (with as much context stripped out of them as possible), but - for later educational pursuits - IQ tests (whilst useful) are NOT the final artiber... if I have to test someone for higher education entrance, I use an abbreviated scale of intelligence (the Wechsler one), a test of visual perception and visuo-motor integration, and a number of devices designed to detect issues such as dyslexia. Nothing rests only on the IQ test. I also use a personality test, and some tests of motivation for the career that the candidate is aiming to follow upon completion of his/her degree. ALL of these things are important as indicators of how successful a person is likely to be.

    "There is a limit to what amount of success can be produced with a limited amount of mental resources to use."

    Yes, there is a limit, and nobody is spared that. Research has shown that appropriate pacing and taking breaks can maximise work productivity (educational as well as occupational); there are studies on this. You'll no doubt try to argue black is white... you're that predictable but I don't care. You're an arse, so your view doesn't count.

    "I don't really know what critical thinking skills are."

    That much is fucking obvious. I'd tell you how to get some but you'd pooh-pooh the idea because you're such a lazy git that you can't be arsed to learn some. Your loss.

    "I'd like to see some of the poindexters out there work really hard to learn and understand things."

    This one did exactly that. Worth it in the end.

    "Lots of individuals have worked hard and not succeeded through no fault of their own."

    True. I was one. Didn't stop me from working harder any-fucking-way. Was worth it in the end.

    You can't be arsed to do it.re

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  184. *waiting again for JBJr to tell h im what to say*

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  185. I'm closing this comment thread. It's going nowhere. Sorry.

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